D&D 5E If you use thunderstep but teleport less than 10 feet do you take damage?

[James Gasik]

That's probably the correct reading of the rules, but it's corner cases like this that really require a DM to put on their thinking cap.

 

[Lyxen]

By RAW when you attack a creature, you roll initiative and enter combat. However, objects have AC and hit points, so you roll an attack roll if you are trying to break down a door with an axe. That's not combat, yet you are still rolling an attack.

On this, honestly, I"m not going to defend the 5e design. As you might have seen from other posts, I'm all for the fluidity of playing, and I certainly won't require initiative to be rolled just for one isolated attack in particular, I agree with you, on an object. Still, that's what the 5e rules say, attack rolls are made as part of an attack action, you will not find them elsewhere.

With the wizard example, he has fully cast a hostile sleep spell and has presented himself as a danger to the diplomat and his guards. The instant he "readies" his spell, combat has begun and initiative is rolled.

It's your decision as a DM, just pointing out that bystanders might not even know that a spell has been cast, or might have no means to identify it as a hostile spell, either because they can't identify the spell but mostly because it has not done anything to anyone.

Sure. The diplomat might not attack and might try to talk the situation down. Combat might not happen, but it's highly probable in my opinion. The wizard wouldn't be trying to ready a sleep spell if things weren't already heading south. Throwing a match into the oil by readying sleep is just asking for fire.

If it was identified as a hostile spell, very probably, especially if the other side was itching for a fight. But no blow has been struck against the opposing side, and some creatures/people won't start a fight in these conditions.

I would also point out that it might not be a good idea to start the fight immediately, because the readied spell WILL expire if the trigger is not met. So, waiting at least one round will have the spell (if it's more than a cantrip) be wasted, in addition to the fact that it prevents the spell to be released almost instantly.

This is why, with our rule of carrying readied actions into combat, it's almost never spells, because out of combat you don't know how long it might take for the trigger to occur.

Correct. All the more reason for an already suspicious and potentially hostile group to attack. Since they don't know what the spell is, they are likely to assume that it's hostile. You don't ready and hold a benign spell while staring at the diplomat, watching for the trigger.

After that, it's again circumstantial, depending on insight checks and/or perception about what is really happening.

Just so that you know, negotiations can lead to really funny results, we had a LARP situation in which our group was confronting another group, our two leaders trying to talk it out. It was night, very few lights, so the rogues in our group went around and managed, one by one, to knock out all the members of the other party except their leader, without any noise (in most of our LARPs, there is a skill for that, but it still requires the rogue to sneak up behind someone and not be noticed), and take the bodies away in the bushes. Our leader managed to annoy the other guy so much that he drew his sword, and went to order his party to attack... only to realise that he was alone. The look on his face was priceless.

We can't claim to be D&D heroes, obviously, but it's just to show what happens when you are really focussing on negotiation in the middle of a potentially dangerous situation, sometimes, you don't focus on what is really important...

 

[James Gasik]

Hah, they got Waylaid! (went to a NERO event once)

 

[Lyxen]

Hah, they got Waylaid! (went to a NERO event once)

Honestly, it was absolutely unbelievable what these two rogues pulled off, we were watching from behind our leader, obviously ready to fight, but no-one noticed.

Again, we are not D&D heroes, but the number of really movie-level events that I've seen over the year is incredibly high, including people taking really stupid risks due to adrenaline and succeeding at things that no-one could have thought possible, in particular in terms of climbing or descending dangerous areas. We warn people about that, and never have had a serious incident, but people look at what they did in retrospect and shudder. Same in combat, we use light weapons, and it's honestly easy to get hit, but I've watched people wade through a melee, and emerge victorious without cheating at all and without being hit, really looked like a hero in a movie. That being said, most melees end up with 75% of the participants on the floor, as is really expected, but sometimes you get quirks, with a group emerging completely unscathed because once there is an imbalance in numbers, things can degenerate pretty quick (something that 5e does slightly better than previous editions with action economy, but is still widely unrealistic).

 

[Lyxen]

Yes. It's the beginning of the spell effect, which is according to you interruptible even though it's an instantaneous effect. Dispel magic should be able to affect it with the exact same timing. There's no reason, if your interpretation of Ready and Triggers are correct, for Dispel not to work as a reaction.

First, my interpretation of ready and triggers are indeed correct, since no one has been able to provide another interpretation. Second, if you read the SAC, the explanation is that the reason dispel magic does not work on instantaneous spells is that the magic has already gone beyond dispelling anyway. It's not explicitly said in 5e (and note that this view on instantaneous spells is not in the core rules, just in the SAC as an additional ruling), but it was much clearer in 3e that what dispel magic did was "end ongoing spells", and instantaneous spells are not "ongoing", they just flare for an instant and are gone, and with the instant that dispel magic itself takes to suppress the spell, anything is already gone, or has already effected changes on the world.

Anyway, note that, in 5e, you cannot prevent spells from being cast unless in very specific circumstances, readying one and holding concentration being an edge case because you are not really interrupting the casting, the casting is already done, you are just interrupting concentration.

Finally, note that it would not work on Thunder Step, since it would be cast AFTER the caster has disappeared, so you have no target anyway.

Try and explain to me how you can interrupt a teleport in mid effect to walk quickly 30 feet, taking far longer than a readied Dispel Magic(since all you do is release the magic), but the spell is too quick for a Dispel Magic to take effect because teleport is instantaneous.

I've already explained to you many times how this works, including descriptions by the DM and similarities with things like evasion, as well as explaining that a move in combat is not walking, at this stage, honestly, I will leave you with your personal conceptions that 5e is really badly written, that it makes no sense, and I will rejoin the crowd of people who just enjoy playing the game as designed, because they have fun with its simulation of the genre.

 

[Lyxen]

I proved it 100% These are objectively perceivable things. Not one thing I mentioned is imperceivable.

Yeah, right, a dice roll is perceivable by a character, you have 100% proved it.

Nope. Again, the combat rules don't make sense

Yes, sure, and all the people playing the game are idiots because it makes sense to them...

If you want to run combat as simultaneous, then everyone in the combat would have to be able to move a little bit, and then be given the opportunity to react to things they see unfolding, and then adjust, and then react to the adjustments, and on and on and on. You'd take 10 hours for a simple combat.

No, you don't, because people with views less constrained by absolute views realise that things which are independent (which is often the case) can be described as running perfectly in parallel. This is what we've been doing for decades, without any problem, you are the only person that I've met who absolutely wants to screw the system with so many preconceptions that are not part of the game that you arrive at this totally nonsensical personal perspective. How you can get there and still enjoy the game is beyond me, but since no-one else out there seems to have these problems, the conclusion is simple, it's not the system, it's you...

Nope.

Good, so at this stage, there's nothing more to be said, dice rolls are not perceivable by characters.

Shield is not different.

Actually it is, since it's a specific type of reaction, as indicated by all references that I've given to you. But then, since you are not reading the rules that are provided, nothing more can be said.

So now you make the PCs roll to perceive events?

It depends on the circumstances, are you telling me that everyone on all your battlefields perceive instantly everything happening everywhere at the same time ?

Which is fine, but is not RAW. 5e is not prescriptive, but it does have rules. If you are arguing that no rules are prescriptive and therefore anything you come up with is RAW, then RAW no longer has meaning.

The fact that everyone but you seems to understand this instinctively and not have a problem with it, so the RAW are in all probability absolutely fine, it's just YOUR personal pre-conceptions which appear nowhere in the rules that makes YOU think that the game does not have meaning. Most of us have no problem, but sure, you are the only one person in the whole world who really knows what the RAW are... rolls eyes

By RAW, yes I absolutely deny it. The boom doesn't happen(by your interpretation of trigger) until my turn is over. That's a hard rule. Saying I die is a house rule, as there's nothing happening to kill me.

So, let me get this clear, you are saying that, in combat, you are allowed to make a declaration that "I am going to take 10 minutes to cover the distance allowed by my speed in my action" ? Is this what you are saying ?

I don't need to. He's about homebrewing things and he and I are usually on the same page. His homebrew doesn't apply here.

Yes, but his advice about behaving as a player is a very good one, and has nothing to do with homebrewing, why don't you go and have a watch?

It's absolutely possible. There's literally nothing preventing it other than death.

Coincidentally, it's exactly what I described above.

I've never met anyone who said that 5e combat makes sense as written.

Well, what can I say, we live in different worlds, but it's strange how millions of people enjoy playing something that does not make sense, I guess we are all idiots...

 

[Lyxen]

It's not surprise, but is like surprise.

While I appreciate the argument, in the end, it's nothing like surprise. Surprise prevents someone from acting during the first round. Having a readied action carry into the first round of combat does nothing like this, it just gives you one limited action if the trigger occurs, which might be at any time during that round, and might never occur at all, or might occur too late since you already acted.

It's also very different to surprise, as surprise is on the basis of not knowing adversaries are there, where as you only ready something based on knowledge.

But I do agree that it interferes with surprise.

 

[Lyxen]

I was going to say yes because it dispels a spell that has been cast, which is indeed the case with a Readied spell:

When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but hold its energy, which you release with your reaction when the trigger occurs.

However, Dispel Magic doesn't target the caster, it targets the target of the caster. It targets the end result of the spell.

Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends

So, technically there is nothing yet to use Dispel Magic on (well, maybe it dispels Mage Armor and/or some other such self-buffs, but not the spell currently being cast).

My ruling would be no, Dispel Magic will not interrupt a Readied spell but Counterspell could.

While I agree about Dispel Magic because of the target, I don't agree about the counterspell, because the spell being "cast as normal" includes its normal casting time, which is over while the spell's energy is being held, so a counterspell that interrupts a spell in the process of being cast is too late.

However, since the caster is concentrating until the energy is released, the best way to prevent the spell from taking effect is to damage the caster to try to make him lose concentration.

 

[Maxperson]

It's your decision as a DM, just pointing out that bystanders might not even know that a spell has been cast, or might have no means to identify it as a hostile spell, either because they can't identify the spell but mostly because it has not done anything to anyone.

Spellcasting is not quiet. The wizard just chanted(not whispered) mystic words, did some somatic stuff with his hands, and tossed sand, rose petals or a cricket(probably in the direction of where he's going to cast the spell). Odds are that he was noticed during a negotiation.

That "nothing" has been done isn't exactly a bonus. Most things you can't detect are charm/mind control magic, which diplomats would be keenly aware of, since that would be something they would use or be the target of more than most people. Couple that with the fact that the wizard is not intently watching the diplomat due to his readied action and you have a recipe for a fight or at least a strongly negative confrontation.

If it was identified as a hostile spell, very probably, especially if the other side was itching for a fight. But no blow has been struck against the opposing side, and some creatures/people won't start a fight in these conditions.

Some might not. That's true. Most would, or would at least kick out the wizard and the rest of his party, perhaps even having them jailed for the duration of the negotiations.

Just so that you know, negotiations can lead to really funny results, we had a LARP situation in which our group was confronting another group, our two leaders trying to talk it out. It was night, very few lights, so the rogues in our group went around and managed, one by one, to knock out all the members of the other party except their leader, without any noise (in most of our LARPs, there is a skill for that, but it still requires the rogue to sneak up behind someone and not be noticed), and take the bodies away in the bushes. Our leader managed to annoy the other guy so much that he drew his sword, and went to order his party to attack... only to realise that he was alone. The look on his face was priceless.

LOL

 

[Lyxen]

Spellcasting is not quiet. The wizard just chanted(not whispered) mystic words, did some somatic stuff with his hands, and tossed sand, rose petals or a cricket(probably in the direction of where he's going to cast the spell). Odds are that he was noticed during a negotiation.

As mentioned, I globally agree, just don't discount subtle spell or the possibility that the wizard is actually further away.

That "nothing" has been done isn't exactly a bonus. Most things you can't detect are charm/mind control magic, which diplomats would be keenly aware of, since that would be something they would use or be the target of more than most people. Couple that with the fact that the wizard is not intently watching the diplomat due to his readied action and you have a recipe for a fight or at least a strongly negative confrontation.

Again, no general disagreement, it's just that, in 5e, we make lots of local rulings due to circumstances.

Some might not. That's true. Most would, or would at least kick out the wizard and the rest of his party, perhaps even having them jailed for the duration of the negotiations.

As above, lots depending on circumstances, personalities, local laws, etc.