If you wanted to create the classic fighter/mage, what Feats would you take?

Re: Do normal bonus feats continue at Epic Levels?

Edena_of_Neith said:
It is not clear whether a character continues to gain bonus feats for character level (3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, 18th) after reaching 21st level as a character.

Does the character retain these bonus feats for level, in addition to the bonus feats as a fighter and a mage?

Does anyone know the answer to this?
Okie, I'll handle this one, you do continue to gain level based feats at the standard rate, ie 21st, 24th, 27th out to infinity. Now the other feats you mention the standard fighter bonus feats and wizard bonus feats. The feat progression changes after you cross the 20 level mark in a class, but you're tentative progression didn't cross 20th in either.

And...let me see how I can help with feats...
Magic Feats...
Still Spell
Create Magic Arms and Armor
Create Wondrous Item
Craft Wand
Spell Focus (and Greater Spell Focus)
Spell Penetration (and Greater Spell Penetration)
Any other metamagic

Fighter Feats
Improved Initiative
Expertise
Dodge
Mobility
Weapon Focus (It'll help counter your low Attack Bonus)
Shield Expert (A shield wielding mage is pretty well off, use your shield to attack or defend, and use your free hand to cast spells)
Toughness Feats

Epic Feats
Automatic Still Spell
Epic Prowess
Epic Toughness
Improved Metamagic
Improved Spellcasting

Now a level progression, would be hard to guage simply based on how much you want to tip in favor of magic or fighting techniques. You can go even levels (Ftr 10/Wiz 10), or more fighter based, with spells to enhance your skills, (Ftr 12/Wiz 8)
or more magically inclined with martial skills as a backup, (Ftr 2/Wiz 18). Maybe even a blend of the two using the Spellsword Prestige Class (from Tome and Blood).

Anyways just some ideas fot you, I'm sure creamsteak will be much more coherent. :)

BTW Edena, I missed the chance to say so earlier, but welcome back to the boards. It's always good to see someone return to the fold. :D
 

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Feats: Every character gains one feat (which may be epic or nonepic feat at the player's choice) at every level divisible by three (21st, 24th, 27th, and so on). These feats are in addition to any bonus feats granted in the class descriptions later in this chapter.

-- ELH page 6
 

I'd hold off on the Epic-level tangent for now, because the original poster was talking about a 2nd level character... he can post again next year if he actually makes it that far!

IMO, the best road for a Fighter/Wizard is to be an Archer type who uses spells and melee as backup. I'd consider a Transmuter specialty, because Transmutation spells tend not to be affected by caster level as much as other spells (VERY important!). You have to drop 3 schools, which is tough. Necromancy and Illusion are easy choices, but the 3rd one is a bear. The "classic Ftr/Wiz" probably doesn't want to drop Evocation either. Lose Divination and lose True Strike (if you can deal with that, go for it). Lose Conjuration and lose Mage Armor (and the possibility of making Bracers of Armor). I suggest Enchantment, but you'll probably lose Sleep over it.:)

Ability Scores: high Dex and Int, medium Str and Con, low Wis and Cha. There's very little you can do about avoiding the usual two "dump stats". You may make Str a "low" stat if you want to be more "pure archer".

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot. If your DM is insane, and allows all the "Quintessential Elf" feats, select that one that gives you a 20' threat range with your bow instead of Rapid Shot.

As you gain fighter levels, finish the series off with Wpn Focus and Wpn Spec with Composite Longbow. The idea here is to make your Attack Bonus with the bow insanely high, because that will be your "schtick".

Later on, when you have 3 Wizard levels, you may want to choose Craft Wondrous Item, because a lot of Transmutation spells happen to be the spells you want in your magic items!

Spell Selection: True Strike, Expeditious Retreat, Jump, Spider Climb, Mage Armor, and Shield are all good. If you got Int all the way to 18, add Magic Missile (or Sleep if you didn't follow my specialization advice). A good general idea is to go for spells that don't rely on caster level too much, and don't involve saving throws (or if they do, make them take-out spells like Sleep). Magic Missile is a backup for when you run out of arrows, or against monsters with DR (or Protection from Arrows).
 

Edena_of_Neith said:
Here is a tentative Feat Path for a wizard:

Free Feat: Spellcasting Prodigy
Free Feat as Human: Enlarge Spell
3rd level: Energy Substitution
5th level (metamagic) : Extend Spell
6th level: Sculpt Spell
9th level: Persistant Spell
10th level (metamagic) : Maximize Spell
12th level: Energy Admixture
15th level: Repeat Spell
15th level (metamagic) : Twin Spell
18th level: Heighten Spell
20th level (metamagic) : Quicken Spell
23rd level: Improved Spellcasting
26th level: Improved Metamagic
29th level: Improved Metamagic
32nd level: Improved Metamagic
35th level: Multispell
38th level: Improved Metamagic
41st level: Multispell


I conceive of the wizard above as being much like the 2nd edition wizard.
He is helpless in hand to hand combat.
He is fried, if an opponent breaks through and reaches him.
He must rely on the fighters to protect him and form a shield against enemy penetration.

He has not specialized in any school or in any particular way of throwing magic (such as rays.)
His spells have no particularly augmented penetrating power (spell focus, spell penetration.)

His job is to sit back behind the fighters and throw spells.
The more spells, the better.
And hopefully, he will fire his spells first, before the enemy can react.


You forgot the extra feats you gain from your character level, you continue to gain feats at every third level, but at 21 and up they may be epic feats. You still have 7 feats to work with, and they can be epic, so your missing a lot.
 
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A Fighter Mage Feat Chain



Introduction

The Iconic Fighter/Mage could be any sort of multi-class combination that displays not only the ability to cast 9th level arcane spells, but also the capacity to be a front-line fighter. Because there are many different combinations of classes, and I’m limiting my time to spend on this topic, this little write-up will only cover the Feat Chains that a Fighter/Mage character would pick up on their path to 16th level.

The character class used in this example is not a normal character class. Instead, the character class used gains all of the abilities of a wizard, and all of the abilities of a fighter simultaneously. That way, all feats can be covered in relation to their general importance to survival.

This is not a combat-optimized character, or an Iconic feat selection. Instead, this is a write-up based on my experiences from playing bards, clerics, rangers, paladins, sorcerers, wizards, arcane archers, and fighters from 3rd edition. Focus is given to the order that a character would select their feats in order to make it from level to level.

Remember that all of this is opinion, and my experiences as a player will be different from yours. There is no reason that my chain will be any better than another’s, but I will try and give my motivation for my selections.



1st Level (hp 10, +1 base attack, +2 Fort/Will, +0 Ref, 1st level wizard)
Scribe Scroll (Granted for being a Wizard)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword or other)
Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword or other)
Improved Initiative (General)

Scribe Scroll is a given. Bastard Sword proficiency isn’t necessarily the path to go for a straight Fighter/Mage, but I think that including the Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus at level 1 gives you complete freedom to choose what your character will use as their primary weapon. In my experience, fighters with improved initiative tend to make it through most 1st level encounters without getting hit.

Also, it gets overlooked in most combat-optimized feat chains: Expertise can be used to give your character a one point higher AC at level one, which is more important that being able to hit the average AC of most 1st level encounters. For instance, a kobold only has a +2 to hit with his crossbow, but his AC is a meager 15. You have a natural 25% chance to hit the kobold (improved by your strength score) and the kobold has a fairly bad attack bonus that should have a 10% chance to hit you if you can get your AC to 21 with cover, expertise, armor, and a decent dexterity bonus.



2nd Level (hp 15, +2 base attack, +3 Fort/Will, +0 Ref, 2nd level wizard)
Dodge or Expertise

The AC bonus you get from either of these skills outweighs any combat feats you can take as a second level fighter, and makes your life a little easier. Low-level encounters feel very safe when you react first because of improved initiative, and all your enemies need a natural 20 to score a hit. Then again, if you encounter creatures with good attack bonuses (+5 or better) you should probably use a ranged weapon. An average orc warrior with a Greataxe has killed more than one fighter of 2nd level in one hit.



3rd Level (hp 20, +3 base attack, +3 Fort/Will, +1 Ref, 3rd level wizard)
Spell Focus (Evocation or Transmutation)

At this point, you can safely say that you’re becoming a potent spell-caster. Normally characters don’t need spell focus till 3rd level, because most 1st and 2nd level encounters can’t resist a Will Save of 15 for any reason. And, because you’re not an all-out spell-caster, you gained quite a bit from your weapon focus at previous levels. Now is the time to take spell focus in one of your favored schools (evocation or transmutation come to mind).



4th Level (hp 25, +4 base attack, +4 Fort/Will, +1 Ref, 4th level wizard)
Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword or other)

4th level is reserved for Weapon Specialization. There is no other feat I can recommend more than getting the power added to your damage from this feat. Simply, it’s your best bet to get this as early as possible.



5th Level (hp 30, +5 base attack, +4 Fort/Will, +1 Ref, 5th level wizard)
Greater Spell Focus (Evocation or Transmutation) or Craft Wand

As a 5th level wizard you get to select a bonus feat. You could take craft wand if you’re in a low-magic setting; otherwise take Greater Spell Focus (or take spell focus in an additional school). You just earned 3rd level magic, you better be able to end an encounter in one shot when the party needs you, and Spell Focus is a pre-requisite.



6th Level (hp 35, +6 base attack, +5 Fort/Will, +2 Ref, 6th level wizard)
Lightning Reflexes or Combat Reflexes
Spell Penetration or Combat Casting

You might not think about this at first, but a 6th level caster with a wand of fireball or lightning bolt is a 6th level encounter. I didn’t learn until my third death-by-explosion that the weak Reflex saving throw of fighters and mages alike is their downfall. The selection of Spell Penetration over your first Meta-Magic feat is because from 6th-12th level you probably will encounter many creatures with Spell resistance of 25, which is at least difficult to overcome till level 15 unless you have Spell Penetration. Lightning Reflexes isn’t on the Fighter list of feats, but it isn’t that far-off, and most DMs will allow you at least this much leniency. If you can’t get Lightning Reflexes (or your playing a core-specific game) then I would probably take Combat Reflexes, which you have to wait many levels to obtain using my progression as-is. As a Final Note, Combat Casting shouldn’t be overlooked as an option if you find yourself failing Concentration checks (shouldn’t be a problem if you’ve got a fighters constitution score and ranks in the skill, but it’s worth mention).



8th Level (hp 55, +8 base attack, +6 Fort/Will, +2 Ref, 8th level wizard)
Improved Critical (Bastard Sword or other)

I’m not too adamant about taking this feat as soon as possible, but that random chance is a good thing to have the aid of. I wouldn’t take it if it wasn’t important, but in my experience a player with an Improved Critical chance only scores a successful critical slightly more often.



9th Level (hp 60, +9 base attack, +6 Fort/Will, +3 Ref, 9th level wizard)
Greater Spell Penetration

Earlier I told you to take Spell Penetration, and I’ll tell you the same thing now. This is the point where it starts to take precedence over Spell Focus because you must pierce Spell Resistance in order to force them to make that painful Will Save. If Greater Spell Penetration does not tempt you, take either Still Spell or Quicken Spell and wait till your next level to gain Greater Spell Penetration.



10th Level (hp 65, +10 base attack, +7 Fort/Will, +3 Ref, 10th level wizard)
Superior Expertise or Mobility
Still Spell or Quicken Spell

Depending on your selection at 2nd level, either of these two feats adds a little bit of survival (and creativity) to your fighting style. I’m fond of taking a –6 to hit in order to keep my AC as close to 30 as possible. Also, now that you FINALLY have a free feat to spend on Meta-Magic, you should choose one of the above. Either of them will be used with at least 50% of the spells you cast from this point on, depending on your selection. Still Spell is for you if you keep your dexterity down and wear heavier armor. Quicken Spell is a tricky little bastard spell when you combine it with your 1st level spells like true-strike, or later, with Bull’s strength.



12th Level (hp 75, +12 Base Attack, +8 Fort/Will, +4 Ref, 12th level wizard)
Power Critical (Bastard Sword or Other)
Craft Staff, Forge Ring, Empower Spell, or an additional Spell Focus

Your fighter feat can easily be Power Critical, because it is truly dangerous when combined with that quickened True Strike mentioned earlier (something I’ve never done, but it would be battle turning in a well played characters hands). I leave the Normal feat a lot of options… mostly because you know better than me at this point in your characters career. Craft Staff is all-important at 32nd level, when you start to become able to craft Epic Staffs, and it’s just cool to have if you can’t get a staff already. Forge Ring is a good way to augment your abilities, and although Craft Wondrous Item is just as good, rings of Wizardry and Counter-spell can be a big hand. Also, consider any Meta-Magic Feats you would use with at least 10% of your spells (included was Empower spell, because that quickened Bull’s strength is a little bastard when you get 9 points instead of the maximum of 6, and anything empowered is more fun than just using a maximized spell). Then again, if you’re a broad ranged caster, taking an additional Spell Focus or Greater Spell Focus will add a lot to your consistency.



14th Level (hp 85, +14 Base Attack, +9 Fort/Will, +4 Ref, 14th level wizard)
Spring Attack, Improved Disarm, or Power Attack

This isn’t necessarily your best friend, but it has gotten me out of jams before. If you selected dodge at 2nd Level and Mobility at 10th, take Spring Attack. Anyone with Spring Attack can move-kill-move in order to avoid getting mauled by a mob. Mobs aren’t really your problem since you have those 6th level spells backing you up, but I think that it isn’t wise to rely on magic in closed spaces. Also, if you selected Expertise and Improved Expertise, your AC is probably two or three points over 30 with Expertise. You can’t really go farther into Expertise (Improved Trip if you’re fond of it), but you can start taking feats from the Power Attack Chain. Power Attack is a staple of hard-core fighters, but I think that a Fighter/Mage is probably more adept with Improved Disarm.



15th Level (hp 90, +15 Base Attack, +9 Fort/Will, +5 Ref, 15th level wizard)
Item Creation, Meta-Magic, Spell Focus/Penetration, or Combat Casting
Leadership

You’re filling up your Magic related abilities now. Good thing, because as you get above level 21 you become goddamn powerful. I won’t give any more advise on what to choose for your Wizard Feats, since you have a better idea about what you like to do than I would at this point. I say “take leadership” at this point in your career. I know it’s an option at level 6, but I have never known any cohort to hit anything important at 6th level. Now that you’re a 15th level character, you can select a pretty good cohort that could be any number of things (possibly an underling fighter/mage). Cohorts are a fun role-play opportunity, but they need to be tougher than the ones you get at 6th level.



16th Level
Options Options Options…

Ok, this is where the feat chain I’m developing ends. At this point you are either developing your Power Attack chain or getting whirlwind (or any number of other attack-method feats) with your fighter feats while raising your magical prowess with your normal feats and Wizard Bonus feats.

My personal preference would be to get as many pre-requisites for Epic Level feats as I can. There are over 100 Epic Feats, and I’m only well read on about 20% of them right now. Maybe I can be more help later, but for now I’m cutting it off here.
 

Is this right?

Is this the correct way in which the character would gain Feats?

Feat Path for the fighter/mage

- Free Feat as starting character:
- Free Feat as human:

1st level fighter / 0 level mage
- 1st level fighter Feat:

1st level fighter / 1st level mage
- NO FEATS

1st level fighter / 2nd level mage
- Free Feat as 3rd level character:

2nd level fighter / 2nd level mage
- 2nd level fighter Feat:

2nd level fighter / 3rd level mage
- NO FEATS

3rd level fighter / 3rd level mage
- Free Feat as 6th level character:

3rd level fighter / 4th level mage
- NO FEATS

4th level fighter / 4th level mage
- 4th level fighter Feat:

4th level fighter / 5th level mage
- Free Feat as 9th level character:
- Metamagic Feat as 5th level mage:

5th level fighter / 5th level mage
- NO FEATS

5th level fighter / 6th level mage
- NO FEATS

6th level fighter / 6th level mage
- Free Feat as 12th level character:
- 6th level fighter feat:

6th level fighter / 7th level mage
- NO FEATS

7th level fighter / 7th level mage
- NO FEATS

7th level fighter / 8th level mage
- Free Feat as 15th level character:

8th level fighter / 8th level mage
- 8th level fighter Feat:

8th level fighter / 9th level mage
- NO FEATS

9th level fighter / 9th level mage
- Free Feat as 18th level character:

9th level fighter / 10th level mage
- Metamagic Feat as 10th level mage:

10th level fighter / 10th level mage
- 10th level fighter Feat:

10th level fighter / 11th level mage
- Free Feat as 21st level character:

11th level fighter / 11th level mage
- NO FEATS

11th level fighter / 12th level mage
- NO FEATS

12th level fighter / 12th level mage
- Free Feat as 24th level character:
- 12th level fighter Feat:

12th level fighter / 13th level mage
- NO FEATS

13th level fighter / 13th level mage
- NO FEATS

13th level fighter / 14th level mage
- Free Feat as 27th level character:

14th level fighter / 14th level mage
- 14th level fighter Feat:

14th level fighter / 15th level mage
- Metamagic Feat as 15th level mage:

15th level fighter / 15th level mage:
- Free Feat as 30th level character:

15th level fighter / 16th level mage:
- NO FEATS

16th level fighter / 16th level mage:
- 16th level fighter Feat:

16th level fighter / 17th level mage
- Free Feat as 33rd level character:

17th level fighter / 17th level mage
- NO FEATS

17th level fighter / 18th level mage
- NO FEATS

18th level fighter / 18th level mage
- Free Feat as 36th level character:
- 18th level fighter Feat:

18th level fighter / 19th level mage
- NO FEATS

19th level fighter / 19th level mage
- NO FEATS

20th level fighter / 20th level mage:
- Free Feat as 40th level character:
- 20th level fighter feat:
- Metamagic Feat as 20th level mage:

20th level fighter / 21st level mage
- NO FEATS

21st level fighter / 21st level mage
- NO FEATS

21st level fighter / 22nd level mage
- Free Feat as 43rd level character:

22nd level fighter / 22nd level mage
- Fighter Feat (1 per 2 levels over 20) :

22nd level fighter / 23rd level mage
- Mage Feat (1 per 3 levels over 20) :

23rd level fighter / 23rd level mage
- Free Feat as 46th level character:

23rd level fighter / 24th level mage
- NO FEATS

24th level fighter / 24th level mage
- Fighter Feat (1 per 2 levels over 20) :

24th level fighter / 25th level mage
- Free Feat as 49th level character

25th level fighter / 25th level mage
- NO FEATS

25th level fighter / 26th level mage
- Mage Feat (1 per 3 levels over 20) :

26th level fighter / 26th level mage
- Fighter Feat (1 per 2 levels over 20th) :

etc.


Is this right?
 


Edena_of_Neith said:
What does Iconic mean?

I've been here for 3 years, and I still do not know what Iconic means.

There are two types of iconic characters: Iconic with a capital I is one of the named characters from the PHB (Krusk for example). This has extended to some other D&D books (most notably the Psionics Handbook), and also to other d20 games (such as Star Wars).

Then you have iconic with a small i, which is a typical character of a type (a fighter/mage in this case).

Hope this helps.
 
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Edena_of_Neith said:
Here is a tentative Feat Path for a wizard:

Free Feat: Spellcasting Prodigy
Free Feat as Human: Enlarge Spell

Do you only want to envision him at the epic level or, do you also want him continually playable? Spellcasting Prodigy really isn't all that great unless his Intelligence stinks, and he needs the boost.
The extra bonus spell won't be all that effective since he won't have access to 4th or 5th level spells until he's 15th level +. And the extra +1 DC isn't worth it even at epic levels.
 

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