I'm annoyed at archers.

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Changing Rs to -5 and adding IRS (ugh) for -2 is precisely to make it like TWF/AMBI. TWF or ambi alone is very close to a -5, tho it varies iirc by weapons chosen so it might vary between -4 and -6 or some such. It takes two feats which do nothing else but give you the extra attack option to get to -2.

You cannot toss in the prerequisite PBS and pretend that it counts because it actually does something worthwhile... it provides its own +1/+1 to the mix that stacks with focus and spec.

My point is you still have to spend two feats, not one, to get to -2/-2. Amb does reduce the penalities to TWF -- and you can still get an extra attack without spending ANY feats (albeit at a large penalty) which is impossible to do with a bow.

Yes -- PBS provides a benefit, but only within 30', so it isn't applicable all the time. In most of the examples given in this thread, the archer is at greater than 30' range, so all PBS does is effectively act as a qualifying feat for another feat. I'd argue that when an archer is within PBS range, he's probably going to be in melee within one round.

if you consider archery, taking feats in archery, taking less than half your feats in archery, or using 3rd level spells, or later 7th level spells and feats sagaciously to all be extreme, then i can see your point.

Perhaps extreme is a poor choice of words. I'm trying to say that comparing a high level melee specialist to a high level archer is comparing apples to oranges -- too many other things factor in for a realistic mathematical comparison. At mid range, most melee fighters can benefit from a few archery feats, and vice versa, and things tend to balance out.

 

[Fisk]

[B

A +1 KEEN flaming burst bow costs just as much as the same Axe. (give or take the pocketchage for the mighty+4 etc.)

Clip..

As for crits... after my archer takes KEEN and IMPCRIT i have a 18-20x3. If we assume that I confirm crits no more often than the melee fighter (a BAD assumption because the archers hit chances are BETTER) then this works out mathematically identical to the greatsword with its 15-20x2 after the same three feats. in truth tho, with more shots and higher to hit chances, the archer should get more benefit overall. Now, if the fighter is using a rapier, he gets 12-20 but he also has only a d6 base damage. that brings our base damages to within a point or two and the archer still has the extra shot and +4 hit.


YMMV [/B]

Apparently you have different DM's Guide than I do.

Mine says on pg 187 Keen: This enchantment...... Only slashing weapons can be echanted to be keen.

So... apparently you have house ruled that Peircing weapons like a Raprier can be enchanted... And that a bow can bestow the keen properties onto a "piercing" projectile.

Thus we now can now all enjoy the slippery slope and just make up any rules and magic items we want.

It seems like this topic would be best brought up under HOUSE RULES since most peoples solutions to this issue seem to be some rule that they made up.

 

[Fenes 2]

It is no house rule. Straight from the SRD:

Keen Edge
Transmutation
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One weapon or fifty projectiles, all of which must be in contact with each other at the time of casting
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)
This spell makes a weapon magically keen, improving its ability to deal telling blows. This transmutation doubles the threat range of the weapon. A normal threat range becomes 19–20. A threat range of 19–20 becomes 17–20. A threat range of 18–20 becomes 15–20. The spell can be cast only on piercing or slashing weapons (and it does not stack with itself). If cast on arrows or crossbow bolts, the keen edge on a particular projectile ends after one use, whether or not the missile strikes its intended target.

http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/srdspellsjkl.rtf

 

[Mulkhoran]

Apparently you have different DM's Guide than I do.

Mine says on pg 187 Keen: This enchantment...... Only slashing weapons can be echanted to be keen.

So... apparently you have house ruled that Peircing weapons like a Raprier can be enchanted... And that a bow can bestow the keen properties onto a "piercing" projectile.

Thus we now can now all enjoy the slippery slope and just make up any rules and magic items we want.

It seems like this topic would be best brought up under HOUSE RULES since most peoples solutions to this issue seem to be some rule that they made up.

Unless, of course, they've errata'd the DMG, and changed that EXACT line to say that slashing AND piercing weapons can be made keen.

Oh look, they did.

 

[HeavyG]

Apparently you have different DM's Guide than I do.

Apparently, yes.

 

[Spatzimaus]

They errata'd Keen to work on piercing weapons. That's official.
Last I checked, they did NOT errata it to allow bows to bestow it on their ammunition. The DMG enchantments that allow a bow to pass the effect to its ammunition are explicitly stated as such. That line wasn't added to Keen, and it isn't stated in the Keen Edge spell (which refers to enchanting the ammunition directly, not the bow).

So, you can make a batch of Keen Arrows, but not a Keen Bow, since a bow isn't a piercing weapon. This, in my experience, tends to keep it from being used too often. Now, some people claim that it DOES bestow the effect on projectiles, but I'd call that a house rule.

 

[Fisk]

They errata'd Keen to work on piercing weapons. That's official.
Last I checked, they did NOT errata it to allow bows to bestow it on their ammunition. The DMG enchantments that allow a bow to pass the effect to its ammunition are explicitly stated as such. That line wasn't added to Keen, and it isn't stated in the Keen Edge spell (which refers to enchanting the ammunition directly, not the bow).

So, you can make a batch of Keen Arrows, but not a Keen Bow, since a bow isn't a piercing weapon. This, in my experience, tends to keep it from being used too often. Now, some people claim that it DOES bestow the effect on projectiles, but I'd call that a house rule.

Great I didn't see the errata'd version....

So good now you can have KEEN'd arrows. NOT a Keened bow but KEEN'd arrows.

So if you have some chap who wants to spend 8,000gp for 50 +1 keened arrows fine by me. Thats expensive for mere 5% increase in crit threat range.

Next issue is the spell. If the parties Magic user wants to drop a 3rd level spell to give some archer a mere 5% increase in the crit threat range fine. It will only last 10min/level.... no big deal.

Expense vs. 5% or 3rd level spell (ie fire ball) for limited 5%.. Its all in balance.

Now the other option would be to buy a scroll with the spell on it but thats still 375 gp for a limited time 5% increase. Then you could either use enchanted +1 arrows for total price of 2375 gp. or Master work arrows for a total of 389.5 gp. (assumming you shot all 50 arrows before the spell expired.... if not simply add another 375 to our total....

What other mole hills are there that we can make mountains out of.

 

[Petrosian]

"My point is you still have to spend two feats, not one, to get to -2/-2. Amb does reduce the penalities to TWF -- and you can still get an extra attack without spending ANY feats (albeit at a large penalty) which is impossible to do with a bow."

Ok surely you realize this paragraph makes your position sound even more unreasonable?

For MELEE, you spend two feats to go from "can make one extra attack with very high penalty" to "can make one extra attack with -2 penalties."

For missiles you spend ONE feat to go from "cannot make the one additional attack at all, no way, no how" to "can make one extra attack with -2 penalties"

Surely you see that the little point about not having an attack option at all shows RS to be even better, not closer.

Anyway, you can keep trying to argue how PBS counts as a second feat but what we have here is quite simple...

For MELEE, two feats each reduce the penalties for the extra attack and thats all they do.

For bows only one feat reduces the penalties all the way down to -2 and it enables the extra attack to boot all on its own. A second feat prereq provides a completely different benefit.

If thats fine for you and seems Ok and as far as you are concerned the PBS is as transparent as the second lost feat for melle, thats cool.

i just do not happen to share that belief.

Maybe others will see it your way.

 

[Lela]

If thats fine for you and seems Ok and as far as you are concerned the PBS is as transparent as the second lost feat for melle, thats cool.

i just do not happen to share that belief.

Maybe others will see it your way.

The Archer in my game loves PBS, especally when combined with Precise Shot.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

For MELEE, two feats each reduce the penalties for the extra attack and thats all they do.

For bows only one feat reduces the penalties all the way down to -2 and it enables the extra attack to boot all on its own. A second feat prereq provides a completely different benefit.

I'm a plain-Jane, vanilla level 1 Fighter. I want two attacks per round. I want all the benefits of my feats to be applicable every time I attack. How many feats must I spend?

TWF: Two feats. Benefits applicable every time I make a full attack. If I use two identical weapons, the benefits of later weapon focus and specialization apply to both, on all attacks.

Archery: Two feats. Benefits of both applicable only if I am within 30' and make a full attack. Future benefits of weapon focus and specialization apply to all attacks, but specialization only applies within 30'.

Let's agree to disagree, shall we, or else I'll be tempted to drag rangers and free Amb/TWF into it.