Imagine there was another Earthlike planet in our system

[Dannyalcatraz]

Humanity is just now beginning to realize that the real problem of running out of oil is not its value as a fuel, but rather, its value in creating plastics. Because of this, we're just now starting to see major research in using bacteria and other life forms to create bioplastics.

Perhaps the aliens came to this conclusion sooner, and use bioplastics almost exclusively.

That is neither truly militarily sensitive nor is it trivial.

 

[Umbran]

I've gotten a couple PMs from people who want to go deeper into the political aspects of the thread. Thanks, folks, for recognizing the issues, and keeping it by the book.

I, however, have said what I'm going to say on those matters - ultimately, it is a question of whether you think the human race is generally naughty, or nice. We could drag up individual case studies for each other pretty much forever, and I doubt anybody would convince anyone of anything they didn't already believe on the matter. That's the time to stop, at least for me. If you guys want to keep butting heads, go for it, so long as you keep it within the rules, and don't make it personal.

If you want to talk about the scientific aspects, I'm all for that.

 

[Derren]

Humanity is just now beginning to realize that the real problem of running out of oil is not its value as a fuel, but rather, its value in creating plastics. Because of this, we're just now starting to see major research in using bacteria and other life forms to create bioplastics.

Perhaps the aliens came to this conclusion sooner, and use bioplastics almost exclusively.

That is neither truly militarily sensitive nor is it trivial.

And as we would have no way to create martian bacteria it would be utterly useless.

 

[Jdvn1]

On your first point. I can't see how you can say that they probably think in a similar way we do. While you can theorize that they had to have the same type of progress in technology as we had this in no way means they think like us. All it means is that there is a slim possibility we can empathize with them and maybe they with us.

Like I said, how they think doesn't matter if we can communicate with them. I think it's not a stretch that they might think in a similar way - in order to achieve the requisite level of technology to communicate, they would need some sort of workable scientific logic. That should be enough, initially. But - regardless, it doesn't matter. We've accomplished some successful diplomatic relations with people pretty different from us - all that is necessary is communication, which is already possible.

On your second point. It's very true that diplomacy is cheapest, in the short and usually the long run. However, this level of international diplomacy is fairly recent. It's the product of millennia of conflict.

That's true - and why it'd be our first response.

 

[Umbran]

And as we would have no way to create martian bacteria it would be utterly useless.

You don't have to create it. They've created it. All you need to do is be able to grow it. And, if they're already using it on industrial scales, they can also tell you how to build a plant that will sustain the stuff. All you need to do is carry the plans and a small sample of the microorganism back to Earth. You don't even have to visit - they can radio you the plans, and send a small sample in a probe! The only question is whether you can economically reduce Earth biomass to something the bug can eat and use, and they can probably tell you its needs on that front.

Interesting tidbit - the creation of fossil fuels on a planet with life is not a foregone conclusion. On Earth, they result from the anoxic decomposition of animal and plant matter, followed by a geologic process. If your microorganisms decompose materials differently, or the geologic process doesn't take place for whatever reason, you get no fossil fuels.

 

[Derren]

You don't have to create it. They've created it. All you need to do is be able to grow it. And, if they're already using it on industrial scales, they can also tell you how to build a plant that will sustain the stuff. All you need to do is carry the plans and a small sample of the microorganism back to Earth. You don't even have to visit - they can radio you the plans, and send a small sample in a probe! The only question is whether you can economically reduce Earth biomass to something the bug can eat and use, and they can probably tell you its needs on that front.

Interesting tidbit - the creation of fossil fuels on a planet with life is not a foregone conclusion. On Earth, they result from the anoxic decomposition of animal and plant matter, followed by a geologic process. If your microorganisms decompose materials differently, or the geologic process doesn't take place for whatever reason, you get no fossil fuels.

So you only need to have bacteria survive a interstellar travel and then grow on a alien planet likely without access to any for of suitable sustenance.
Sounds easy...

 

[Jdvn1]

Communication != understanding.

True, but we think we're pretty smart people and can eventually understand other people. So - we'd try it before sending off whatever method of destruction you can think of. And, history shows that we'll try it a lot and for a long time.

And what information would we trade? They have a similar technological level, so trading technology is not that profitable and unlikely to result in a big breakthrough on either side.

Similar technology level != same technology.

Breakthroughs tend to happen more frequently when you have more people working on the same problem - especially when those more people have a different way at looking at problems.

The only information we could trade is about the respective planets/lifeforms/history, etc. And those information are either sensitive (bioweapons) or unimportant.

You may think it's unimportant, but I think others wouldn't. Information about our respective planets/lifeforms/history helps us to understand the other cultures (remember you emphasizing understanding?). It increases the ability to empathize.

Further, basic knowledge about each others' planets/lifeforms might enable us to find a way to have some of them live here or visa-versa. If we can trade a couple of scientists (there are those that would be jumping at the opportunity), our scientists could work at each others' planets and share more in-depth knowledge (what you might consider 'sensitive' information could be traded if it was mutually done - though I don't know where you draw that line... I wouldn't consider a lot of it sensitive).

 

[Jdvn1]

And as we would have no way to create martian bacteria it would be utterly useless.

Why couldn't we create a martian-like atmosphere in something like a greenhouse? Why is it impossible?

 

[Derren]

True, but we think we're pretty smart people and can eventually understand other people.

Thats the point. We are not talking about other people.

You may think it's unimportant, but I think others wouldn't. Information about our respective planets/lifeforms/history helps us to understand the other cultures (remember you emphasizing understanding?). It increases the ability to empathize.

Further, basic knowledge about each others' planets/lifeforms might enable us to find a way to have some of them live here or visa-versa. If we can trade a couple of scientists (there are those that would be jumping at the opportunity), our scientists could work at each others' planets and share more in-depth knowledge (what you might consider 'sensitive' information could be traded if it was mutually done - though I don't know where you draw that line... I wouldn't consider a lot of it sensitive).

Knowledge about their history would give us some knowledge about them, but nothing can make us understand them. We can only approximate what they might do or not and considering the only communication is over radio even with knowledge of their culture it would be very vague.
And transferring scientists? How? They would die as soon as their supplies run out. You would basically just exchange corpses which could be the basis of a bioweapon program.

Why couldn't we create a martian-like atmosphere in something like a greenhouse? Why is it impossible?

So you have a greenhouse, possibly pressurized and radiation shielded (or enhanced) which is completely barren as no plants from earth would grow there. Air is the least of ones problems on foreign planets.

 

[Umbran]

So you only need to have bacteria survive a interstellar travel and then grow on a alien planet likely without access to any for of suitable sustenance.
Sounds easy...

It probably is. Microorganisms are basic organisms, and so generally have basic needs. Not having major structures, they tend to freeze astonishingly well. If not, posited that the Martians are using them on an industrial scale, and thus know their needs pretty darned well, putting together a small breeder environment for them for the trip should not be difficult. If they are industrially useful, they probably subsist on a slurry of basic nutrients derived from a wide variety of Martian life. So long as the system isn't dependent on large molecules our life doesn't produce, we may well be set.