immediate and Swift actions

[kexmal]

Oh where to begin...
1. Primary source rule. In this case, the description of the abilities takes priority over the general overview at the top of page 7 that you so cherish.
2. Swift actions are introduced in the Miniature's Handbook, and Immediate actions in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. They are referenced and defined in the Complete Arcane, Complete Mage Races of Destiny, and every other book that uses swift or immediate actions - quite a few by the end of 3.5E. There is never one single hint anywhere that there the a 1/round limit you are getting from the Rules Compendium text.
3. So, we are left to conclude that either the Rules Compendium is introducing a new rule, or that generalizations such as "humans have four limbs, five digits on each limb, and a brain" allow for cripples and politicians.



But let's say they used a swift on their turn at INIT 5, and then wanted to use an immediate right after INIT 3. Would this be acceptable?

i would say no of course if they use it at end of INIT 3 then that is the LAST action for the round they cant use both a swift at INIT 5 and an immediate at INIT 3-.1. If it is acceptable to use an immediate as the VERY last action then you must qualify meaning you must NOT have used your swift or immediate for the round... But lets say I used it at the top of the order then i cant use my swift during my turn and cant use my immediate until after my next turn whihc would be THIS round AFTER INIT count 5
So i am saying that it SEEMS there is a choice use either a swift or immediate... if you dont use a swift you can use an immediate BUT it uses your NEXT swift... After your NEXT TURN (not round) you can use a immediate again but it uses the swift for the next round etc... So no using BOTH a swift and an immediate in the SAME round BUT you can use immediates two rounds in a row JUST like you can use swift two rounds in a row....

 

[NuSair]

Swift and Immediate actions were introduced in the Expanded Psionics Handbook*, and are repeated in several books after that. They also appear in the SRD.

As noted, the Rules Compendium is supposed to be the definitive source for 3.5e rules (which is rather unfortunate, as I really don't like that book).

(And, FWIW, I agree with you on pretty much everything you say on this thread wrt Swift and Immediate actions.)

* Edit: You note in the post above that Swift actions were actually introduced in the Miniatures Handbook. As I don't have that book, I won't argue that!

In general, I agree as well, BUT- in my digging though the RC, I don't see even one reference that supports it. Looking for something in the RC besides what i quoted above that defines round/turn and it just isn't there.

 

[Dandu]

i would say no of course if they use it at end of INIT 3 then that is the LAST action for the round they cant use both a swift at INIT 5 and an immediate at INIT 3-.1. If it is acceptable to use an immediate as the VERY last action then you must qualify meaning you must NOT have used your swift or immediate for the turn...

Turn... or round?

But lets say I used it at the top of the order then i cant use my swift during my turn

And this is completely supported by the rules.

and cant use my immediate until after my next turn whihc would be THIS round AFTER INIT count 5

This is where your train of thought goes off the rails.

Look at the rules for an immediate action in the Rules Compendium. Using an immediate action before your turn prevents you from using a swift action on your turn, but I am willing to bet a sizable amount of bitcurrency that not even the Rules Compendium says it eats up your immediate action after that turn.

 

[kexmal]

Please everyone interested look at page 7 TOP left cause the description on page 7 of immediate is what is causing problems people forget to read the WHOLE page. In my opinion it is clear you can take either a wsift or an immediate in a round. The whole debate hinges on whther the "or" is inclusive or exclusive. From context it is exclusive MEANING you cant take BOTH an immediate and a swift in one round.

 

[Dandu]

Why does using an immediate action on round 1, after INIT 5, but before INIT 3, eat up your swift action for round 2, on INIT 5?

 

[kexmal]

Why does using an immediate action on round 1, after INIT 5, but before INIT 3, eat up your swift action for round 2, on INIT 5?

Dont know but it makes it clear that using an immediate during a turn that is not your eats up you NEXT swift that is clear enough.

 

[delericho]

In general, I agree as well, BUT- in my digging though the RC, I don't see even one reference that supports it. Looking for something in the RC besides what i quoted above that defines round/turn and it just isn't there.

Round and turn are defined in the PHB. They're well-understood terms, and really shouldn't be causing the sorts of confusion this thread is suffering.

Note that page 7 of the RC says "in a normal round..." (emphasis mine). So, those rounds where a PC uses both a swift and an immediate action are, by definition, not normal rounds - doesn't mean they can't happen.

The descriptions of Swift and Immediate actions are actually quite clear:

ON YOUR TURN you can use either a Swift action OR an Immediate action, but not both. "Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn."

WHEN IT IS NOT YOUR TURN (but not when you're flat-footed) you can use an Immediate action. If you do so, you cannot take another Immediate action and cannot take a Swift action until after your NEXT turn. "You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn)."

(Both from the SRD. I don't have the Rules Compendium to hand.)

 

[NuSair]

Look at the rules for an immediate action in the Rules Compendium. Using an immediate action before your turn prevents you from using a swift action on your turn, but I am willing to bet a sizable amount of bitcurrency that not even the Rules Compendium says it eats up your immediate action after that turn.

IMMEDIATE ACTION
An immediate action consumes a tiny amount of time.
However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be
performed at any time during a round, even when it isn’t your
turn. Using an immediate action on your turn counts as your
swift action for that turn. If you use an immediate action
when it isn’t your turn, you can’t use another immediate
action or a swift action until after your next turn. You can’t
use an immediate action when you’re fl at-footed.

 

[Dandu]

Dont know but it makes it clear that using an immediate during a turn that is not your eats up you NEXT swift that is clear enough.

At that point, it is a new round, so why should my immediate action from the previous round affect my swift action the next round?

IMMEDIATE ACTION

An immediate action consumes a tiny amount of time.
However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be
performed at any time during a round, even when it isn’t your
turn. Using an immediate action on your turn counts as your
swift action for that turn. If you use an immediate action
when it isn’t your turn, you can’t use another immediate
action or a swift action until after your next turn. You can’t
use an immediate action when you’re fl at-footed.

After turn 2, guv'nor.

I'm saying that having an immediate action used before your turn should not prevent you from using an immediate action after your turn, only a swift action during it.

But you might be quoting text to support me. If so, carry on.

 

[kexmal]

So what I am saying is this you cannot use an immediate actionn in any round you have already used a swift... BUT if you DONT use a swift and if you use an immediate on a turn that is NOT your own then you cannot use a swift OR an immediate again until your NEXT turn i OVER.... So that means lets say I am INIT 5 and DONT use a swift I use an immediate on INIT3... I CANT use a swift on my next turn (INIT 5) BUT I CAN use another immedaite on INIT 4 or lower... BUT If I use my swift during my turn I CANT ALSO USE an immediate on THAT TURN...
So you can use two swifts in two rounds two immedites in two rounds, a swift and an immediate in two rounds BUT NOT a swift and a swift OR an immediate and an immediate OR a swift and an immediate in the SAME round ...