Immersion?

[pemerton]

To me, it seems that some RPGers use immersion not to describe a psychological state, but a logical one. For instance, here:

I prefer to understand immersion as a scale that measures the distance between character and player decision making thus that less space->more immersion.

That's not a description of a mental state. It's a characterisation of a similarity relationship between processes taking place in the real world and imagined events occurring in the imagined world of the game.

For me, "immersion" describes a mental state: Oxford Languages, vis Google, gives me "deep mental involvement in something" and that seems about right.

I very often get deeply mentally involved in RPGing, as with any other game: we're having fun, time passes, before you know it it's dark outside.

Immersion in the fiction of the game is a different matter. As GM, that doesn't happen very often: I'm busy making decisions about what scene to frame, how to adjudicate a declared action, etc. I think the game that I find the most immersive, GMing, is Prince Valiant, because it's system is very simple, and resolution and decisions about resolution flow so naturally from the fiction.

As a player, it depends. To become immersed, the actual activity of playing the game has to bring me into the fiction, not sit at right-angles to it (or cross-purposes). For me, the game that I have found most immersive in play is Burning Wheel. I don't have to think in any meta-sort of way, for instance about what adventure the GM has in mind or how should I ration my character's abilities. I can just inhabit my character, and declare actions that flow from who they are and what matters to them.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

To me, it seems that some RPGers use immersion not to describe a psychological state, but a logical one. For instance, here:
That's not a description of a mental state. It's a characterisation of a similarity relationship between processes taking place in the real world and imagined events occurring in the imagined world of the game.

For me, "immersion" describes a mental state: Oxford Languages, vis Google, gives me "deep mental involvement in something" and that seems about right.

I very often get deeply mentally involved in RPGing, as with any other game: we're having fun, time passes, before you know it it's dark outside.

Immersion in the fiction of the game is a different matter. As GM, that doesn't happen very often: I'm busy making decisions about what scene to frame, how to adjudicate a declared action, etc. I think the game that I find the most immersive, GMing, is Prince Valiant, because it's system is very simple, and resolution and decisions about resolution flow so naturally from the fiction.

As a player, it depends. To become immersed, the actual activity of playing the game has to bring me into the fiction, not sit at right-angles to it (or cross-purposes). For me, the game that I have found most immersive in play is Burning Wheel. I don't have to think in any meta-sort of way, for instance about what adventure the GM has in mind or how should I ration my character's abilities. I can just inhabit my character, and declare actions that flow from who they are and what matters to them.

This is a great post

Minor quibble with your last paragraph: I don't think one has to approach other RPGs (well at least not D&D or Worlds without Number, with which I'm most familiar) thinking/worrying about "what adventure the GM has in mind" or "how should I ration my character's abilities" that you seem to call out as things that potentially prevent a "most immersive" experience. I mean, sure, a non-zero number of players do think about those things but they don't need to do so to actually play the game. First, they can just follow the fiction and, especially if the fiction includes conceits like patrons or adventuring organizations, their characters are told/pick the adventure to pursue. And the characters, being capable adventurers, should have some sense of their abilities and the limitations thereof. Sure, we track those things as players but that doesn't mean the characters are not aware of their own abilities. Or maybe are you saying that any game that has limited abilities requiring player tracking is inherently "less immersive" than, say, Burning Wheel which presumably has no such mechanics (I have no idea about Burning Wheel or, really, a lot of the games you reference, so be gentle, please)? And, of course, I get that the last paragraph is really just about your preference, just thought it might be interesting to explore further.

 

[AlexofBarbaria]

For me, "immersion" describes a mental state: Oxford Languages, vis Google, gives me "deep mental involvement in something" and that seems about right.

I very often get deeply mentally involved in RPGing, as with any other game: we're having fun, time passes, before you know it it's dark outside.

To rechew my previous post, I think this is too broad. There's a key phenomenological difference between the state of being receptive and curious, soaking in novelty (what I, and I think most other RPGers, are pointing at when we say immersion) and the state of being goal-oriented and getting things done (flow), though both are characterized by deep mental involvement.

Both are pleasant, so time passes more quickly than unpleasant states where we're watching the clock, but looking back on the experience afterwards, flow has an "empty calories" quality. After an immersive state, there's plenty to digest, so at the end -- though it may be surprising how late it is -- the block of time spent doesn't feel like a memory hole. That's what I meant by time passing more slowly.

I think this distinction is very relevant to RPGing, but typical sessions messily include both. Thinking of "pure" activities makes it more clear: like spending say, three hours at teamLab Planets TOKYO (immersive art installation) vs. three hours spent coding (the closest activity to a pure flow state I can think of).

 

[Bill Zebub]

This is a great post

Minor quibble with your last paragraph: I don't think one has to approach other RPGs (well at least not D&D or Worlds without Number, with which I'm most familiar) thinking/worrying about "what adventure the GM has in mind" or "how should I ration my character's abilities" that you seem to call out as things that potentially prevent a "most immersive" experience. I mean, sure, a non-zero number of players do think about those things but they don't need to do so to actually play the game. First, they can just follow the fiction and, especially if the fiction includes conceits like patrons or adventuring organizations, their characters are told/pick the adventure to pursue. And the characters, being capable adventurers, should have some sense of their abilities and the limitations thereof. Sure, we track those things as players but that doesn't mean the characters are not aware of their own abilities. Or maybe are you saying that any game that has limited abilities requiring player tracking is inherently "less immersive" than, say, Burning Wheel which presumably has no such mechanics (I have no idea about Burning Wheel or, really, a lot of the games you reference, so be gentle, please)? And, of course, I get that the last paragraph is really just about your preference, just thought it might be interesting to explore further.

My first reaction is, "Oh, yeah, rationed abilities are super immersion-breaking."

But...I am often critical of other claims that things break immersion, because the pattern seems to be that whatever a given player doesn't like gets labeled by that player as immersion breaking.

So, yeah, I could easily make an argument that rationed abilities are so gamist that they yank me out of the fiction. That in a fight against monsters I would somehow hold back on my effort, because I may have to fight an even scarier monster before I find a safe place to rest for eight hours, makes any kind of narrative sense. Immersion breaking!

But, really, I just don't like resource-based mechanics. I don't like playing the game of trying to guess if I need my resources now more than I'll need them later. I prefer to play in the moment.* But I'm not sure whether I can really claim that breaks immersion.

*5e Barbarian's Reckless Attacks is an example of a non-resource constrained mechanic I like.

 

[Marc17]

Funny enough, I just used Immersion in referring to Simulationist in another thread. Being the ability to suspend belief and feel like they are actually acting in the imaginary world they are playing in. Terminology I hear mostly used in LARPing but is certainly something that I see in RPGs which I refer to the Simulationist part of GDS for why people play these games, or at least what they are looking for in doing so. Even then, it is usually in varying amounts of all for most people, and often change from player to player and game to game.

 

[CleverNickName]

"Immersion" was the biggest buzzword in the Skyrim modding community a few years ago. There were contests, parodies, the whole nine yards.

 

[Umbran]

But, really, I just don't like resource-based mechanics. I don't like playing the game of trying to guess if I need my resources now more than I'll need them later. I prefer to play in the moment.* But I'm not sure whether I can really claim that breaks immersion.

You can claim that you, personally, find it breaks your own immersion, without trying to claim it generally does so.

Folks can make up their own minds if it is an issue that also impacts players at their own games.

 

[Umbran]

To rechew my previous post, I think this is too broad. There's a key phenomenological difference between the state of being receptive and curious, soaking in novelty (what I, and I think most other RPGers, are pointing at when we say immersion) and the state of being goal-oriented and getting things done (flow), though both are characterized by deep mental involvement.

I think it is fine if our "immersion" covers both, honestly.

For me, I characterize immersion as how aware I am that I am doing something else. Like, being immersed in a book means that the story absorbs my though so that I basically forget that I am reading a book. That doesn't mean I stop turning pages, or stop sipping from a pleasant beverage - those things are just not really taking my attention.

So, being immersed in an RPG, I am thoroughly engaged with what the character is doing - I still roll dice and make game-decisions, I just no longer care that I am doing so.

I might, then, consider this as to be both being receptive, and getting things done. I might even say I am most immersed when it is both of those things.