Immortals Handbook - Ascension Discussion

Alzrius said:
The healing function doesn't make Iatric Effect totally useless; you can use various Iatric powers (such as storm) that last multiple rounds without having to use an action each round. Iatric effect also damages undead at the same time that it heals living creatures, so it's more useful if you and your living allies are facing a group of undead, etc.

The healing function of wish and reality revision do make Iatric [Effect] a much less attractive choice though. And if an immortal takes the Alter Reality cosmic ability as an esoteric ability, he can use a quickened wish at will, letting him restore himself to full hp at the start of his turn on each and every round.

Alzrius said:
Further, while I suppose one could rules-lawyer their way into saying that no function of wish carries an XP penalty, I'd say that using wish to create a magic item carries the normal XP cost for doing so, as outlined in the spell description. Even if you use it as an SLA, making new magic items via wish should still cost you.

Perhaps wish and reality revision used as SLAs should only cover 5,000 XP for the "Create a magic/psionic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic/psionic item" function?

Alzrius said:
Again, the rules aren't totally clear on this issue, but I'd say that multiple castings of time stop don't stack, or even overlap with each other. You can't use another one until the first one ends (though different casters who use time stop at the same time would still be able to interact with each other normally, but not anyone else, as outlined in the spell description).

In WotC's D&D rules, time stop has an effectively "instantaneous" duration according to the FAQ, and the section for combining magical effects in the PHB points out that "two or more spells with instantaneous durations work cumulatively when they affect the same target". Thus, the durations of multiple time stops stack. However, for the IHB, it should definitely be ruled that you cannot cast time stop while already under the effect of a time stop.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Adslahnit said:
Okay, there seem to be some major balance problems with a few of the spell-like abilities of immortals, both from the divinity templates themselves and portfolios (especially double portfolios due to the standard + swift activation times):

1.) The Greater Dispel Magic SLA that immortals and above get is rather useless, because the maximum caster level bonus you can ever get on your dispel check for Greater Dispel Magic is +20.

With 3.5 its virtually impossible to catch the sweet spot of the math at really high levels, which means things invariably fall into the 'too good' or 'not good enough' categories. In such non-specfic cases I generally tend to err on the side of caution.

2.) The Good portfolio's Holy Word SLA, the Evil portfolio's Blasphemy SLA, the Law portfolio's Dictum SLA, and the Chaos portfolio's (also the Music portfolio's) Word of Chaos SLA are all overpowered. Your caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities is equal to your HD + your divine rank, so your caster level will always be higher than your HD. Holy Word/Blasphemy/Dictum/Word of Chaos kills all enemies that don't match the corresponding alignment if their HD is equal to or less than your caster level - 10. So a in a fight between a 60 HD intermediate deity (caster level 72nd) with the Law portfolio and a 60 HD intermediate deity with the Music portfolio, it's just going to be Russian Roulette to see who penetrates the other guy's spell resistance for Dictum or Word of Chaos.

Agreed.

I was planning to revise a number of 3.5E spells for Grimoire. This was one of them.

I suggest a divisional drop rather than a subraction drop.

Holy Word

Equal to caster: Deafened
Less than caster: Blinded, Deafened
Less than 2/3 caster: Paralyzed, Blinded, Deafened
Less than 1/2 caster: Killed, Paralyzed, Blinded, Deafened

3.) Having at least 17 HD and double-Thievery or double-Time portfolios gets you Time Stop at will as a standard or swift action. Need I say more? As a 17 HD hero-deity (a "mere" ECL 32) with double-Thievery or double-Time portfolios, you'll be able to wipe the floor with anybody that doesn't have Spell Stowaway (Time Stop) or Slipstream. I know that Spell Stowaway (Time Stop) costs only an epic feat slot, but not every immortal is capable of casting Time Stop or willing to take Nescience just to qualify for Spell Stowaway (Time Stop), and it shouldn't be that every immortal is forced to take this epic feat even though it doesn't make sense for them.

Alzrius already commented on this (thanks).

4.) Don't you think that the Charity portfolio's Wish SLA and the Luck portfolio's Miracle SLA are a bit too much? Sure, immortals can toss around a daily number of Wishes without the xp cost due to their divinity templates, but Wish and Miracle beat everything but Time Stop in terms of the most powerful 9th-level portfolio SLA. And just like the Time Stop portfolio SLA, a 17 HD hero-deity (ECL 32) with double-Charity or double-Luck portfolios can cast Wish/Miracle at will as a standard or swift action, all without the xp cost.

Those abilities drain 5000 quintessence unless you grant the wish/miracle to someone elese - in which case they pay the price.
 

Did I miss something?

I was looking over the powers and I didn't see any sort of "Alter Landscape" Power.

A deity of nature should be able to create forests, jungles, or savannah, as he/she chooses. A disciple might create a well, a lesser deity a major lake in a region. The point is that a deity should have the ability to alter an area in ways reflecting its portfolio.

The Divine effect table on page 116 is simply attacks. Now, a Fire deity certainly would have that, but a deity of knowledge? I'd imagine that he'd suddenly grant everyone in an area with literacy, or each person would have the effect of a tongues spell.
 

Can anyone read my previous post - it looks like empty space - don't understand it? :confused:

Howdy Thompsja! :)

thompsja said:
I was looking over the powers and I didn't see any sort of "Alter Landscape" Power.

A deity of nature should be able to create forests, jungles, or savannah, as he/she chooses. A disciple might create a well, a lesser deity a major lake in a region. The point is that a deity should have the ability to alter an area in ways reflecting its portfolio.

Deities can shape the landscape into anything they want within their divine realm (divinely morphic areas). This is page 23 (24 of the pdf) under Godly Realm.

thompsja said:
The Divine effect table on page 116 is simply attacks. Now, a Fire deity certainly would have that, but a deity of knowledge? I'd imagine that he'd suddenly grant everyone in an area with literacy, or each person would have the effect of a tongues spell.

The Divine [Effect] table is simply attacks because its for describing attack abilities (those with the word [Effects] in parenthesis). It describes ten attack abilities which means I don't have to create ten different abilities within the lists of divine abilities.

There are multiple abilities within the main lists that do things other than deal damage.
 

Upper_Krust said:
"1.) The Greater Dispel Magic SLA that immortals and above get is rather useless, because the maximum caster level bonus you can ever get on your dispel check for Greater Dispel Magic is +20."

With 3.5 its virtually impossible to catch the sweet spot of the math at really high levels, which means things invariably fall into the 'too good' or 'not good enough' categories. In such non-specfic cases I generally tend to err on the side of caution.

"2.) The Good portfolio's Holy Word SLA, the Evil portfolio's Blasphemy SLA, the Law portfolio's Dictum SLA, and the Chaos portfolio's (also the Music portfolio's) Word of Chaos SLA are all overpowered. Your caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities is equal to your HD + your divine rank, so your caster level will always be higher than your HD. Holy Word/Blasphemy/Dictum/Word of Chaos kills all enemies that don't match the corresponding alignment if their HD is equal to or less than your caster level - 10. So a in a fight between a 60 HD intermediate deity (caster level 72nd) with the Law portfolio and a 60 HD intermediate deity with the Music portfolio, it's just going to be Russian Roulette to see who penetrates the other guy's spell resistance for Dictum or Word of Chaos."

Agreed.

I was planning to revise a number of 3.5E spells for Grimoire. This was one of them.

I suggest a divisional drop rather than a subraction drop.

Holy Word

Equal to caster: Deafened
Less than caster: Blinded, Deafened
Less than 2/3 caster: Paralyzed, Blinded, Deafened
Less than 1/2 caster: Killed, Paralyzed, Blinded, Deafened

"3.) Having at least 17 HD and double-Thievery or double-Time portfolios gets you Time Stop at will as a standard or swift action. Need I say more? As a 17 HD hero-deity (a "mere" ECL 32) with double-Thievery or double-Time portfolios, you'll be able to wipe the floor with anybody that doesn't have Spell Stowaway (Time Stop) or Slipstream. I know that Spell Stowaway (Time Stop) costs only an epic feat slot, but not every immortal is capable of casting Time Stop or willing to take Nescience just to qualify for Spell Stowaway (Time Stop), and it shouldn't be that every immortal is forced to take this epic feat even though it doesn't make sense for them."

Alzrius already commented on this (thanks).

"4.) Don't you think that the Charity portfolio's Wish SLA and the Luck portfolio's Miracle SLA are a bit too much? Sure, immortals can toss around a daily number of Wishes without the xp cost due to their divinity templates, but Wish and Miracle beat everything but Time Stop in terms of the most powerful 9th-level portfolio SLA. And just like the Time Stop portfolio SLA, a 17 HD hero-deity (ECL 32) with double-Charity or double-Luck portfolios can cast Wish/Miracle at will as a standard or swift action, all without the xp cost."

Those abilities drain 5000 quintessence unless you grant the wish/miracle to someone elese - in which case they pay the price.

There's your post, U_K. By the way, where does it say that the wish/miracle portfolio SLAs cost you 5,000 quintessence whenever you use them? And isn't that chump change for lesser deities and above?
 

There's a large chunk of free space in page 162, in the Psionics Appendix. You could rename the appendix the "Psionics and Revised Spells Appendix", and use the free space on page 162 for fixes and nerfs to spells and powers. For instance, I would remedy certain spells and powers as so:

Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally: These spells can summon any creature with a CR no greater than 1.33x the spell's spell level (rounded down) and an ECL no greater than 2x the spell's spell level (rounded down). When Heightened to the appropriate spell level using the Automatic Metamagic Capacity and Metamagic Freedom epic feats, a Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally spell takes on the appropriate numeric suffix, and can summon a creature of the appropriate CR/ECL as usual.

eg. A Summon Monster XLVIII could summon a CR 64 and ECL 96 creature, a Summon Monster XLIX could summon a CR 65 and ECL 98 creature, and a Summon Monster L could summon a CR 66 and ECL 100 creature.

Greater Dispel Magic: There is no limit on the maximum caster level on your dispel check.

Dispel Psionics: If you augment this power to 10 power points, then there is no limit on the maximum caster level on your dispel check.

Wish and Reality Revision: This spell/power cannot be used for the "remove injuries and afflictions" function, though it can still be used to duplicate a spell/power with the healing subtype. If this spell/power's XP cost is somehow bypassed (such as by using wish/reality revision as a spell-like/psi-like ability), then it covers only 5,000 xp for the "Create a magic/psionic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic/psionic item" function.


Miracle: This spell cannot be used for the "raising fallen allies to continue fighting" function, though it can still be used to duplicate a spell with the healing subtype.

Time Stop: When this spell is cast, all creatures within 300 feet are allowed to make a Will save to enter the caster's accelerated time stream, as if they had used Spell Stowaway (Time Stop). A creature in an accelerated time stream, be it the caster or a creature that made a successful Will save, gains no benefit by casting another time stop; the time stream cannot be tampered with any further, and as such, casting time stop within a time stop is futile.

Holy Word, Blasphemy, Dictum, and Word of Chaos: Use the following revised table to determine its effects on affected creatures:

HD --- Effect
Equal to caster level --- Deafened
Less than caster level --- Blinded, deafened
Less than 2/3 caster level --- Paralyzed, blinded, deafened
Less than 1/2 caster level --- Killed, paralyzed, blinded, deafened
 
Last edited:

Adslahnit said:
In WotC's D&D rules, time stop has an effectively "instantaneous" duration according to the FAQ, and the section for combining magical effects in the PHB points out that "two or more spells with instantaneous durations work cumulatively when they affect the same target". Thus, the durations of multiple time stops stack. However, for the IHB, it should definitely be ruled that you cannot cast time stop while already under the effect of a time stop.

Where are you looking, because in the Main 3.5 FAQ, there's no mention of time stop that I can find. As it stands, the listed duration for the spell is still 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. So you can't just keep using time stop while under the effects of time stop to remain outside of time for as long as you want.
 
Last edited:

Alzrius said:
Where are you looking, because in the Main 3.5 FAQ, there's no mention of time stop that I can find. As it stands, the listed duration for the spell is still 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. So you can't just keep using time stop while under the effects of time stop to remain outside of time for as long as you want.

It should be in page 61 of this old 3.0 FAQ: www.wizards.com/dnd/files/MainFAQv06272003.zip

D&D 3.0 FAQ said:
Assuming you are high enough level to cast a persistent time stop spell, could you use the virtual 24 hours the spell lasts to rest and recover your spells?
You can’t make time stop persistent. (Its duration is effectively instantaneous for purposes of the Persistent Spell feat.)

Now that I'm looking at it again, it only has an effectively instantaneous duration for the purposes of the Persistent Spell feat, so its duration is still 1d4+1 rounds for all other purposes. You're right.
 

On a different note, I noticed that disciples, prophets, and hero-deities may not be able to take epic feats just because they don't have 21+ HD, even though they already have divine ability slots. Should disciples, prophets, and hero-deities be able to select epic feats, provided that they can meet the prerequisites of whatever they pick?
 

On no, not the Timestop debate again. I love the spell to death, but man does it raise problems. :)
Maybe adding an addendum to ascension to fix a short list of spells would be ok if you have the space, but any fix to timestop would require a whole new wording. I toyed with the idea of reworking the cheesy spells in D&D, and I have the writeups for these problem spells as follows. Note that I don't like my own timestop writeup due to it's wordiness, but what to you all think?
[Alignment] Word: (I did a complete re-write)[Sblock]

Blasphemy/Word of Chaos/Holy Word/Dictum
Evocation [Alignment, Sonic]
Level: Clr 7, Alignment 7
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 40 ft.
Area: Non[Alignment] creatures in a 40-ft.-radius spread centered on you
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will partial
Spell Resistance: Yes

This spell has no effect on creatures with the [Alignment] subtype, or creatures of the [Alignment] Alignment.

Creatures within the area take 1d6 damage per caster level. Half of this damage is divine, the other half is sonic damage. A will save halves the damage. Creatures failing the save are additionally dazed for 1 round. Failing the save by 5 or more have their Strength score decreased by 2d6 points for 2d4 rounds. Failing the save by 10 or more leaves the subject paralyzed and helpless for 1d10 minutes. Finally, failing the save by 15 or more causes the subject to die outright, and can only be restored to life by any spell that could revive a creature slain by a death effect. Undead and constructs failing the save by 15 or more are simply destroyed. (Vampires, liches and similar creatures can still revive themselves)

Furthermore, if you are on your home plane when you cast this spell, non(alignment) extraplanar creatures within the area are instantly banished back to their home planes. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours. This effect takes place regardless of whether the creatures hear the (Spell). The banishment effect allows a separate Will save to negate.
[/sblock]

Timestop: Rewrite using bits of old 2E wording with new wording and made it less of an auto-win or a wasted action. Its a bit wordy (moreso than the original) but while it isn't all powerful at immortal levels, I left in some functionality just so it doesn't become a dead spell. Honestly Timestop, with it's original wording (can't affect anyone but yourself) is fine until metamagic is involved.[sblock]
ime Stop
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 9, Trickery 9
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Area: 5-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you
Duration: Special (See Text)

Upon casting this spell, you cause the flow of time to stop for one round outside the area of effect. Outside this area the sphere simply seems to shimmer for an instant (and possibly change locations). Inside the sphere, which moves with the caster, anyone is free to act for the 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time this spell lasts.

The caster has no knowledge of the amount of time he or she has.

The caster and those within the area can move and act freely, but all creatures of less than demigod status are frozen in time. Creatures of demigod or greater status take 6d6 points of Chronal cold damage each round, half of which is not subject to energy resistances. Additionally, any creatures that enter or leave the area of effect during the spells duration take the 6d6 Chronal cold damage each round they do so.

Nothing can leave the area without being frozen as well. Those inside the area cannot cast spells at foes outside the area or summon or call creatures into areas ouside the sphere, but may use teleport to an area outside the area, but unless the caster travels with them, time will be stopped outside the area, and they will arrive at the end of the spell's duration.

The movement of the caster could put a creature within the area, and they may act normally while inside. (Take turns on their innititive count, make attacks of opportunity, etc) Casters must coordinate actions with allies (meaning delaying and holding actions) to move without preventing allies from being hedged out of the spell.

Those inside the area may attack with melee attacks (which may be coup-de-grace attempts if the subjects are vulnerable) against frozen creatures, and may fire ranged attacks at such creatures which will strike when the Timestop spell ends.

You are undetectable while time stop lasts except to creatures of demigod or greater status. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop.

Deities frown on the use of this spell as the strain it puts on them and their servants is generally unwarranted. Usually a caster can get away with 1d3-1 castings of timestop in his or her lifetime without attracting the ire of a powerful entity (which can usually find the caster unerringly). Further castings draw more and more powerful servants of the entity to attack the caster. (Unless the entity decides to attack in person)[/sblock]
Oddly, I didn't consider the others...
 

Remove ads

Top