Immortals Handbook - Ascension Discussion

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Farealmer3 matey!

All this discussion on abrogate has given me a question for U_K. First, would abrogate nullify a wizards spellcasting(as discussed above)?

I think thats a bit overly harsh, but I think it might nullify their highest level spells.

When in doubt try this. Make their highest ability score 10. Now many characters will have magical items that raise their scores, so this will be 10+ ability boosting item, but it should still make a dent.

Second, would it abrogate an ability that has multiple uses like silver surfer's power cosmic?

Arguable, but probably just the most powerful ability derived from it.

And lastly, would it abrogate Superman's ability to absorb yellow sunlight or marvel Thor's ability to use his hammer?

I would say that Superman (and Thors) greatest strength is their strength. So I'd reduce those to 10 (Thor's belt boosting that to 20...still not enough to wield the hammer).

 

[Farealmer3]

Make their highest ability score 10. Now many characters will have magical items that raise their scores, so this will be 10+ ability boosting item, but it should still make a dent.

But if it doesn't effect abilities scores boosted by items whats the point of affecting scores at all? Despite your system and 4th editions changes in a average D&D game it's the items that boost the stats up the wazzo.

Arguable, but probably just the most powerful ability derived from it.

Then i take it abrogate has no effect on alter reality? Being that it is really just alot of powers under a single banner.

I would say that Superman (and Thors) greatest strength is their strength. So I'd reduce those to 10 (Thor's belt boosting that to 20...still not enough to wield the hammer).

But why would his strength be a greater ability than the ability that gives him his strength. And while i ain't a Thor expert i thought he didn't need his belt to lift his hammer i thought it was wothyness that determined that, as shown by Beta Ray Bill lifting it?

 

[Colin_Fredericks]

I'm one writer (also doing the layout and art duties while trying to keep a part time job) with one editor who basically works for free copies and a bunch of die hard immortal fans who help out for free. Contrast that with WotC and Eternity Publishing is basically the smallest PnP RPG company with the least resources.

So, realistically speaking, if WotC can't get it right what chance do we have? Thats not to say we don't try our best (time allowed).

Actually, I know of quite a few smaller companies - mine is one of them. I also know that every sentence with poor grammar, every missing apostrophe, and every sentence that ends halfway through costs me a sale. I hope that when you consider the book "complete" you'll send it to an editor before final layout and bookmarking.

I've been reading more of it, and I just have to say that three-weapon fighting is hilarious. Very cool. I have this bizarre image of an Epic-level gnome inventor juggling chainsaws... And I can actually see the "Tenth Sense" ability being a very playable special ability, making someone flip back and forth madly as the rest of the party travels from place to place.

Thanks for being so active on the forums and responding so quickly. Good luck with future works!

--Colin

 

[Alzrius]

Hey Colin. Been a while!

I would strongly recommend sending the book to a professional editor.

Ouch.

Well, I do deserve that. I didn't edit this book nearly to the level that I should have (e.g. how much errata I did for the Bestiary), and if it wasn't for everyone else here pointing out various things that I missed, the book wouldn't be nearly as tightly-knit as it is.

I'll just have to do that much better on the next few releases!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

But if it doesn't effect abilities scores boosted by items whats the point of affecting scores at all? Despite your system and 4th editions changes in a average D&D game it's the items that boost the stats up the wazzo.

The items will boost the stats but the stats themselves will still be lessened.

Remember that deities gain bonuses to ability scores via their divinity templates. These would be negated for that score.

Then i take it abrogate has no effect on alter reality? Being that it is really just alot of powers under a single banner.

Alter Reality is listed as one power, it just has myriad applications.

But why would his strength be a greater ability than the ability that gives him his strength.

Thats like saying take away a wizards spellcasting ability or a fighters attacking capability. Its simply too much of a reduction.

And while i ain't a Thor expert i thought he didn't need his belt to lift his hammer i thought it was wothyness that determined that, as shown by Beta Ray Bill lifting it?

Comic book mjolnir requires worthiness to lift, mythological mjolnir requires strength.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again Colin!

Actually, I know of quite a few smaller companies - mine is one of them.

Small world.

May I ask which company?

I also know that every sentence with poor grammar, every missing apostrophe, and every sentence that ends halfway through costs me a sale.

I suspect thats something of an over-exaggeration, though its a nice way of keeping you on your toes I imagine.

I hope that when you consider the book "complete" you'll send it to an editor before final layout and bookmarking.

Possibly, though I recall with regards the Bestiary, the print version has very few errors.

I've been reading more of it, and I just have to say that three-weapon fighting is hilarious. Very cool. I have this bizarre image of an Epic-level gnome inventor juggling chainsaws...

Got the idea from One-Armed Swordsman, though a few days ago I (re)watched Baby-Cart #6: White Heaven in Hell and it has a ninja girl who fights by juggling three daggers.

And I can actually see the "Tenth Sense" ability being a very playable special ability, making someone flip back and forth madly as the rest of the party travels from place to place.

Glad you like that one as well.

Thanks for being so active on the forums and responding so quickly.

Just the luck of the draw...you caught me on my nights off.

Good luck with future works!

Thanks Colin, you too.

 

[Colin_Fredericks]

Small world.

May I ask which company?

Valent Games. It's mostly just me. I haven't written any d20 stuff in a while; my best seller when I did was probably The Other Side, which I edited rather than wrote. My most recent book was Sufficiently Advanced, which is a far-future science fiction game.

 

[paradox42]

New loophole

A player of mine was futzing around with the rules regarding divine artifacts during last night's game, and discovered a potential loophole that other DMs should be aware of- though this one's probably less serious than the Anyfeat one a different player found last year because no DM worthy of the title would permit it to go unchallenged.

What you do is, you take advantage of the fact that an item can contain a Divine ability. You have one of your four artifacts grant you the Extra Level divine ability. This grants you an extra HD, with all attendant benefits... including a slight boost in the capacity of your divine powers that depend on HD... for example the power and value of your four divine artifacts. It is thus possible to set up a situation such that you use your divine artifact to gain enough levels to increase the value of the same artifact to the point where you have enough "leftover value" to gain another Extra Level ability, and the whole thing snowballs. The player who discovered this showed me how he could use it to grant his character something on the order of 800 more levels, and he just stopped there because he got bored (more or less).

There are two ways to resolve this, that I can see; the first is to simply disallow the Extra Level ability in items, though that technically still leaves other loopholes along these lines like having the item grant six feats that "just happen" to be used to take Extra Level... but there's a simpler way to short-circuit this. If an item is granting the levels, I ruled, then the levels are part of the item, not part of the wearer. Therefore, the levels do not in fact increase the wearer's "soul power" for the purpose of determining item/artifact value, and the loop breaks before its first iteration.

As with the Anyfeat loophole, the player who found this is getting a substantial XP reward, though in this case it'll technically be delayed a bit due to the way we've been playing the side effects of other characters ascending (to wit, when one character "crosses the threshold" to godhood, other beings who provided substantial help get hit with backwash energy from the ascension process and gain two levels' worth of XP out of it).

 

[Farealmer3]

Remember that deities gain bonuses to ability scores via their divinity templates. These would be negated for that score.

Yes, but again so what? They could just use artifacts with massive redundant boosts so they don't lose much, if anything. Afterall if we are talking their best ability score they are going to take great measures with it.

Alter Reality is listed as one power, it just has myriad applications.

So is power cosmic, so why does it get a pass and alter reality doesn't? It just seems weird that this would total Jim Jaspers(who greatest ability was reality warping), but not have similar effect on Silver Surfer(whose greatest ability is power cosmic).

Comic book mjolnir requires worthiness to lift, mythological mjolnir requires strength.

Yes and comic one is what i am going on(thats why i said marvel Thor). Would his ability to use his hammer go away. If it can take away mythos Thor's ability to use his belt than i assume it can work on the strongest artifact. Which for marvel Thor would be his hammer.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

A player of mine was futzing around with the rules regarding divine artifacts during last night's game, and discovered a potential loophole that other DMs should be aware of- though this one's probably less serious than the Anyfeat one a different player found last year because no DM worthy of the title would permit it to go unchallenged.

What you do is, you take advantage of the fact that an item can contain a Divine ability. You have one of your four artifacts grant you the Extra Level divine ability. This grants you an extra HD, with all attendant benefits... including a slight boost in the capacity of your divine powers that depend on HD... for example the power and value of your four divine artifacts. It is thus possible to set up a situation such that you use your divine artifact to gain enough levels to increase the value of the same artifact to the point where you have enough "leftover value" to gain another Extra Level ability, and the whole thing snowballs. The player who discovered this showed me how he could use it to grant his character something on the order of 800 more levels, and he just stopped there because he got bored (more or less).

There are two ways to resolve this, that I can see; the first is to simply disallow the Extra Level ability in items, though that technically still leaves other loopholes along these lines like having the item grant six feats that "just happen" to be used to take Extra Level... but there's a simpler way to short-circuit this. If an item is granting the levels, I ruled, then the levels are part of the item, not part of the wearer. Therefore, the levels do not in fact increase the wearer's "soul power" for the purpose of determining item/artifact value, and the loop breaks before its first iteration.

As with the Anyfeat loophole, the player who found this is getting a substantial XP reward, though in this case it'll technically be delayed a bit due to the way we've been playing the side effects of other characters ascending (to wit, when one character "crosses the threshold" to godhood, other beings who provided substantial help get hit with backwash energy from the ascension process and gain two levels' worth of XP out of it).

'Tis a good point, but, as you noted, since the 'extra levels' came from equipment, their ECL modifier has already been added in to the equation, so they wouldn't get artifact spillover.
Artifacts containing Divine/Cosmic/Transient powers are cool; Indeed, we need grimoire. (Although, as my players were finding while making characters, since they are not familiar with the power level of a cosmic ability that just having equipment grant them is too awesome to pass up)