Immortals Handbook - Ascension Discussion

[Alzrius]

If you weren't a regular in this forum, and you were reading the description of Abrogate, how would you know... that the ability is randomly selected if you don't have something like Psychometry? That it doesn't subsequently nullify abilities if prerequisites cannot be met? That it doesn't nullify ability score-boosting items if an ability score is negated?

The ability is NEVER randomly selected, nor selected by the person with the power, Psychometry or not. It's selected objectively; that seems obvious from a plain-text reading. It doesn't say "negates the greatest known abiluty" it just says it negates their greatest ability. Likewise, the part about not negating prerequisites is also obvious, because "negated" doesn't mean you don't have it anymore. The same thing applies to stats; it makes the stat be 10 - since it only affects one thing, it therefore doesn't affect items too.

You seem to be more concerned with rules-lawyering using the power, which is fine, but I really don't think that anyone who just reads it is going to have anywhere near the hard time you think they are.

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

Adslahnit, I think you've nailed Krusty's single biggest weakness as a designer, even more than his chronic lateness. U_K, you have a really bad tendency to assume that everyone follows your thought processes, and sees your writings exactly as you do. Abrogate really does need all of that stuff spelled out, along with countless other things in the book that are open to massive interpretation.

I do have to say that the book seems much more like something meant for the regulars of the forum, rather than a product for casual D&D players that want some immortal-level gameplay.

The ability is NEVER randomly selected, nor selected by the person with the power, Psychometry or not. It's selected objectively; that seems obvious from a plain-text reading.

U_K's reply to my question about Abrogate implies that it's randomly selected if you don't know the abilities of your enemy, but chosen by you if you do know the abilities of your opponent:

4.) If an immortal wants to use Abrogate but does not have Psychometry for viewing his enemy's abilities, how is the "most powerful ability" decided on?

Randomly.

The reply was in this very thread.

 

[Alzrius]

I'm taking U_K's response to mean that the GM determines what the most powerful ability is, since that's the only thing that makes sense otherwise. The most powerful ability is the ability that's most powerful; hence, that's the one that's picked.

 

[Farealmer3]

I am sure U_K has already gone over this, but do immortals regenerate used quintessence like a psion does used power points or can they only get it back by using the methods they get more with?

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

I've got three more sets of questions, one of which is a question that I'm asking again:

1a.) How is the base size of an immortal determined?
1b.) Does you really just pick any size category that the immortal qualifies for, as per Table 1-3 on page 4 of the Epic Bestiary? For instance, an intermediate deity with 70 outsider HD can have a base size anywhere from Fine to Titanic, correct?
1c.) Do class levels count for determining the possible size of an immortal? For example, would an intermediate deity 70th-level human fighter have a possible size of Fine to Titanic, or would he be limited to Fine to Medium?

2a.) An immortal with outsider HD can choose whether he wants to be a tall biped or a long quadruped, thus determining his base land speed, carrying capacity multiplier, space, and reach as per page 5 of the Epic Bestiary, correct?
2b.) How would the base land speed, carrying capacity multiplier, space, and reach of a perfect cube or sphere (ala Ozma from Final Fantasy IX, Atropus from D&D's Elder Evils, Ego the Living Planet from Marvel Comics, U_K's very own Algol, etc.) be determined?

3a.) How are an immortal's natural attacks determined? I'm guessing that it starts off as two slam attacks (whether the immortal is a tall biped or a long quadruped), then more natural attacks are added as the Abnormality divine ability is taken. This doesn't match up with some of the natural attack patterns of some of the monsters in the Epic Bestiary though, in particular, the Amilictli with its two slam attacks and one stomp attack.
3b.) Do you get two wing buffet attacks the first time Abnormality (Wings) is taken, giving you an amount of wing buffets equal to the number of wings you have, just like the angels in the Epic Bestiary (who seem to be the most Ascension-compatible creatures in the book)?
3c.) How do you get other kinds of natural attacks, like bites, claws, gores, stings, stomps, tail slaps, and tentacles using Abnormalities?
3d.) How would a cherubim's one bite, two claws, and six wing slaps be translated into Abnormalities?
3e.) How would a seraphim's four bites, six wing slaps, and one tail slap be translated into Abnormalities?
3f.) What would the natural attack pattern of a perfect sphere or cube be?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Farealmer - could have sworn I replied to this.

Yes, but again so what? They could just use artifacts with massive redundant boosts so they don't lose much, if anything. Afterall if we are talking their best ability score they are going to take great measures with it.

Base Ability Scores + Bonus Ability Score points for Level + Feats boosting ability scores + Divine Abilities boosting ability scores + Divine Bonus (for Divinity) to ability scores + Magic Item ability score boost

>

Base 10 Ability Score + Magic Item Ability Score Boost

So is power cosmic, so why does it get a pass and alter reality doesn't? It just seems weird that this would total Jim Jaspers(who greatest ability was reality warping), but not have similar effect on Silver Surfer(whose greatest ability is power cosmic).

To me the power cosmic is like the surfer's divinity.

Yes and comic one is what i am going on (thats why i said marvel Thor). Would his ability to use his hammer go away. If it can take away mythos Thor's ability to use his belt than i assume it can work on the strongest artifact. Which for marvel Thor would be his hammer.

I don't think it would take away his hammer or ability to use it. Just his strength, so his ability with the hammer would be diminished.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Adslanit dude!

How are readers supposed to know how Abrogate works if they're not avid readers of this forum then?

The same way the people who didn't write in to the Sage Advice column knew how to use the rules that others (who did write in) didn't. DM fiat.

Anyway, if that's the case, then I suppose I can stick to simple spelling and grammar fixes, along with fixes if they only take up one extra sentences. Abrogate was just the ability that needed the most fixing. 75% of the abilities in the book are mostly usable, with only 25% of them being vague enough as to need fixing anyway.

Obviously the higher in power you go the more abstract things become...literally you could say.

I have a PDF editor that I can use to edit pages, by the way. That should help me constrain myself to the line limits for each page.

I appreciate the help mate!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again Adslahnit!

U_K's reply to my question about Abrogate implies that it's randomly selected if you don't know the abilities of your enemy, but chosen by you if you do know the abilities of your opponent.

Abrogate is NOT random (as Alzrius mentioned), apologies if thats how my reply sounded - I thought you meant multiple abilities where no single ability seems greater than another.

The DM knows the enemies abilities, so it will know the most powerful ability. The player doesn't have to know anything.

If the creature has multiple abilities, which the DM eyeballs as all being roughly on a par then feel free to determine which one is nullified Randomly.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there!

I am sure U_K has already gone over this, but do immortals regenerate used quintessence like a psion does used power points or can they only get it back by using the methods they get more with?

They can only get it back by attaining more quintessence.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello!

I've got three more sets of questions, one of which is a question that I'm asking again:

1a.) How is the base size of an immortal determined?

From its race, modified by any Divine Abilities which can increase size (Divine Immensity).

1b.) Does you really just pick any size category that the immortal qualifies for, as per Table 1-3 on page 4 of the Epic Bestiary? For instance, an intermediate deity with 70 outsider HD can have a base size anywhere from Fine to Titanic, correct?

If its an elf deity then its medium sized unless it has some Divine Immensity divine abilities.

1c.) Do class levels count for determining the possible size of an immortal? For example, would an intermediate deity 70th-level human fighter have a possible size of Fine to Titanic, or would he be limited to Fine to Medium?

No.

2a.) An immortal with outsider HD can choose whether he wants to be a tall biped or a long quadruped, thus determining his base land speed, carrying capacity multiplier, space, and reach as per page 5 of the Epic Bestiary, correct?

Wrong. The immortal cannot choose to be anything other than its initial race, unless modified by the appropriate divine abilities.

2b.) How would the base land speed, carrying capacity multiplier, space, and reach of a perfect cube or sphere (ala Ozma from Final Fantasy IX, Atropus from D&D's Elder Evils, Ego the Living Planet from Marvel Comics, U_K's very own Algol, etc.) be determined?

I think using the smaller size category seems more appropriate. But I don't think it matters either way since such monsters would probably have flight and that would be their main mode of movement.

3a.) How are an immortal's natural attacks determined? I'm guessing that it starts off as two slam attacks (whether the immortal is a tall biped or a long quadruped), then more natural attacks are added as the Abnormality divine ability is taken. This doesn't match up with some of the natural attack patterns of some of the monsters in the Epic Bestiary though, in particular, the Amilictli with its two slam attacks and one stomp attack.

Interesting question as there is no true default. I try to give monsters as many attacks as their natural attacks allow. The Amilictli is sort of wrong, it should probably make two slams OR two stomps against ground targets, or one slam and one stomp.

3b.) Do you get two wing buffet attacks the first time Abnormality (Wings) is taken, giving you an amount of wing buffets equal to the number of wings you have, just like the angels in the Epic Bestiary (who seem to be the most Ascension-compatible creatures in the book)?

Yes, but wing attacks are amongst the weakest in the game (low base damage and only half strength)

3c.) How do you get other kinds of natural attacks, like bites, claws, gores, stings, stomps, tail slaps, and tentacles using Abnormalities?

Bites imply you have fangs or sharp teeth. Claws are just slams for creatures with sharp claws. Gores implies horns. Stings implies some sort of tail or tentacle barb. Tail slaps require a tail. Tentacles require tentacles.

I'd say one abnormality could easily convert just as easily as it can create. So one for a bite attack, one for a gore attack etc.

3d.) How would a cherubim's one bite, two claws, and six wing slaps be translated into Abnormalities?

Abnormality x3: Two wings each time

3e.) How would a seraphim's four bites, six wing slaps, and one tail slap be translated into Abnormalities?

Abnormality x7: Two wings (x3), one head (x3), tail.

3f.) What would the natural attack pattern of a perfect sphere or cube be?

One slam, equivalent to a Crush.