Immortals Handbook - Ascension Discussion

[EarthSeraphEdna]

From its race, modified by any Divine Abilities which can increase size (Divine Immensity).

What about immortals with no real "race" (not necessarily subtype), so to speak? All of the angels in the Epic Bestiary and all of the demon lords have no real "race", so how is their size determined? What makes a malakim Huge, and what makes a kyriotates Gargantuan, for example? When making an immortal with 100 outsider HD, no class levels, and no predetermined race (like a generic really big deity), for instance, can you just declare him to be Titanic size like Surtur?

Wrong. The immortal cannot choose to be anything other than its initial race, unless modified by the appropriate divine abilities.

Once again, what about immortals with no real "race"?

I think using the smaller size category seems more appropriate. But I don't think it matters either way since such monsters would probably have flight and that would be their main mode of movement.

That still doesn't answer my question of whether they count as "bipeds" or "quadrupeds" for space, reach, carrying capacity, base land speed, and such. An immortal's fly speed with Abnormality (wings) is equal to triple his base land speed, and an immortal's base land speed is different depending on whether he counts as a "biped" or a "quadruped", so it might come up when determining the fly speed of a perfectly cubical or spherical immortal. It's also going to come up when you have to determine how much of a burden a perfectly cubical or spherical immortal with X Strength can bear, and how much space/reach said immortal would have.

Bites imply you have fangs or sharp teeth. Claws are just slams for creatures with sharp claws. Gores implies horns. Stings implies some sort of tail or tentacle barb. Tail slaps require a tail. Tentacles require tentacles.

True, but not all natural attacks do the same damage. Claws, for example, are one damage dice step up from slams. There need to be some secondary benefits to balance things out, like how Abnormality (Legs) multiplies your land speed and how Abnormality (Wings) multiplies your fly speed, but it might be hard to figure out the secondary benefits for every single kind of natural attack.

Abnormality x3: Two wings each time

Abnormality x7: Two wings (x3), one head (x3), tail.

I notice that the bite doesn't require an Abnormality. So when making a monstrous immortal, you can just declare that it has sharp teeth and get a free bite attack?

 

[Farealmer3]

Base Ability Scores + Bonus Ability Score points for Level + Feats boosting ability scores + Divine Abilities boosting ability scores + Divine Bonus (for Divinity) to ability scores + Magic Item ability score boost

>

Base 10 Ability Score + Magic Item Ability Score Boost

Only in the way 5>3. Like i said in 3.5 game i don't know of alot of people that would use feats to boost their score, not when you can use them to give yourself abilities that aren't easily placed on items. Bonus for level isn't a big deal as it is low even for a high level person. Divine bonus is not that large unless your crazy high on the charts(by that time your going to need to rely on more than raw strength anyway). As for divine abilities, why bother? Just use boosting artifacts. This way accually rewards people who put it all into items. Which is what i thought you were getting away from?

To me the power cosmic is like the surfer's divinity.

But were does that leave Jaspers or house of M Wanda? Who were more powerful than the Surfer yet are crippled by this ability simply because you label reality warping as a single ability.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya Adslahnit mate!

What about immortals with no real "race" (not necessarily subtype), so to speak?

Theres no such immortal, they only give the illusion of being unique.

All of the angels in the Epic Bestiary and all of the demon lords have no real "race", so how is their size determined?

The angels follow the progression of 50% size increase from deva to planetar, planetar to solar, solar to elohim etc.

All demon lords have a race, you just don't always know what it is. Demogorgon possibly a Bar Lgura, Orcus a Nalfeshnee, Pazuzu a Vrock etc.

What makes a malakim Huge, and what makes a kyriotates Gargantuan, for example?

The progression from Deva to Planater to Solar was an approximate 50% size increse, I simply carried this idea forward.

When making an immortal with 100 outsider HD, no class levels, and no predetermined race (like a generic really big deity), for instance, can you just declare him to be Titanic size like Surtur?

I didn't just declare him titanic. Surtur is a sidereal giant, it makes sense for him to be as big as possible (without having that size compromise his attacks).

Once again, what about immortals with no real "race"?

Examples?

That still doesn't answer my question of whether they count as "bipeds" or "quadrupeds" for space, reach, carrying capacity, base land speed, and such.

If this is the sort of thing that can bring your campaign to a halt you need to pull back from the rules a bit. Sometimes people can't see the wood for the trees.

An immortal's fly speed with Abnormality (wings) is equal to triple his base land speed, and an immortal's base land speed is different depending on whether he counts as a "biped" or a "quadruped", so it might come up when determining the fly speed of a perfectly cubical or spherical immortal. It's also going to come up when you have to determine how much of a burden a perfectly cubical or spherical immortal with X Strength can bear, and how much space/reach said immortal would have.

Logically, fly speed would always be triple land movement speed. So a winged quadruped would have a larger back and therefore a larger potential wingspan (or larger proprtional wingspan to the length of its back that is) so it would fly faster than a same size winged biped.

True, but not all natural attacks do the same damage. Claws, for example, are one damage dice step up from slams. There need to be some secondary benefits to balance things out, like how Abnormality (Legs) multiplies your land speed and how Abnormality (Wings) multiplies your fly speed, but it might be hard to figure out the secondary benefits for every single kind of natural attack.

As you say, figuring out every eventuality would put one on the road to insanity hence the reason DMs in previous editions were always taught to think on their feet and adapt.

I notice that the bite doesn't require an Abnormality. So when making a monstrous immortal, you can just declare that it has sharp teeth and get a free bite attack?

Yes but it has to be monstrous in the first part.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Farrealmer dude!

Only in the way 5>3.

So you admit it is better then.

Like i said in 3.5 game i don't know of alot of people that would use feats to boost their score, not when you can use them to give yourself abilities that aren't easily placed on items.

You can only have 4 artifacts you know. I don't know alot of people that would use multiple magic items to boost ability scores. They might use one such item, but multiple, very unlikely. Using various powers a Demigod could probably have an ability score of 100+ before magic items, I don't see that as insignificant.

Bonus for level isn't a big deal as it is low even for a high level person. Divine bonus is not that large unless your crazy high on the charts(by that time your going to need to rely on more than raw strength anyway). As for divine abilities, why bother? Just use boosting artifacts. This way accually rewards people who put it all into items. Which is what i thought you were getting away from?

So basically what you are saying is that Abrogate actually affects characters who build ability scores up through their own internal powers, much like dead magic would affect characters who rely too much on their magic items?

But were does that leave Jaspers or house of M Wanda? Who were more powerful than the Surfer yet are crippled by this ability simply because you label reality warping as a single ability.

Where did I say I labelled reality warping as a single ability? All magic is a form of reality warping but I am sure I mentioned it wouldn't nullify all spells.

 

[Farealmer3]

Where did I say I labelled reality warping as a single ability? All magic is a form of reality warping but I am sure I mentioned it wouldn't nullify all spells.

You from 3-5 responses to me earlier.

Alter Reality is listed as one power, it just has myriad applications.

Using various powers a Demigod could probably have an ability score of 100+ before magic items, I don't see that as insignificant.

But why would they use various powers? When they can just use an item?

So basically what you are saying is that Abrogate actually affects characters who build ability scores up through their own internal powers, much like dead magic would affect characters who rely too much on their magic items?

True, but unless they attacker has that special ability to make themselves immune to they're own DMF, it would be a double edge sword.

 

[paradox42]

Without involving myself in the rest of these arguments, many of which look suspiciously familiar to me (as a longtime reader of IH threads), I do have to respond to this comment:

I don't know alot of people that would use multiple magic items to boost ability scores. They might use one such item, but multiple, very unlikely.

This is an example of how playtesting can really, really help test a system's assumptions. Character optimizers (and to a lesser extent, any and all players with an inclination towards powergaming) invariably use as many items as they can to boost ability scores and saves. The rules for pricing magic items encourage this, because the cost for adding a second ability to an item which already does one thing is doubled. Therefore, by splitting your ability boost such that each item only boosts one ability score, and that is its sole ability, you get more bang for your gold piece.

My players, who have all recently gained divine PCs, have been going out of their way to figure out how to split their bonuses among the four artifacts so as to maximize the value. Two of them were trying to get different types of bonuses to ability scores (i.e. beyond just an enhancement bonus) so the bonuses would stack. They eventually settled on not bothering so much with item boosting to ability scores, because they determined that the math was better if they used Epic spell buffs instead. They just use artifacts to massively boost Spellcraft, and then build on that. This is not to say they aren't still milking their artifacts for the highest possible ability boosts, they just aren't relying on them exclusively anymore.

And on the topic of buffing...

Using various powers a Demigod could probably have an ability score of 100+ before magic items, I don't see that as insignificant.

This has me curious: which powers? Using my own house rules for minimum HD compared with divine powers, wherein a Demigod needs to have 100 HD to reach the Demigod level, it would be difficult to do unless you use (and more to the point, abuse) Epic magic with the Fortify seed; I can't even imagine how a deity with only 30 hit dice is going to accomplish the same thing.

 

[WarDragon]

Just have to get to 50 Strength, and then blow all your divine slots on Legendary Strength. Maybe a weakness for Iron Body or some such would help, but it's probably not necessary.

Starting with an 18 base, assuming a +2 racial bonus, putting all ability points from level up into Strength, and getting a +5 inherent bonus gives you 32, and the template itself brings that to 44. A mix of Legendary Strength and 2-for-1 tradeoffs from the other ability scores can make up the rest quite easily.

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

Theres no such immortal, they only give the illusion of being unique.

Even if there are no such things as immortals of unique races, there are cases where the base race of an immortal is a complete guess, or where the base race is something that hasn't been statted up before. Take Atropus, for example; you could make a case for a genius loci being the base, but a genius loci is a 70 HD ooze with no listed advancement. Take the 320 HD first one Death (as statted up by Alzrius) as another example; what would his base race be, and why is his manifestation Gargantuan (this question is more directed towards Alzrius)?

The progression from Deva to Planater to Solar was an approximate 50% size increse, I simply carried this idea forward.

In your system, aren't the HD/size advancements for creatures with natural physiologies replaced by the minimum/maximum HD rules in the Epic Bestiary? So a minotaur with 6-7 racial HD would be Large, a minotaur with 8-15 racial HD would be Huge, a minotaur with 16-31 racial HD would be Gargantuan, and so on and so forth. Wouldn't this mean that a minotaur immortal with 20 outsider HD would be Gargantuan, and a minotaur immortal with 100 outsider HD would be Titanic? Or is there a size limitation for how big your outsider HD can make you?

I didn't just declare him titanic. Surtur is a sidereal giant, it makes sense for him to be as big as possible (without having that size compromise his attacks).

I noticed that there was a jump in size from ophanim (Gargantuan at 88 HD) to cherubim (Macro-Fine at 133 HD). Are you saying that sidereals can be at the maximum size category that their outsider HD allows?

By the way, it's only now I notice that the HD for each type of angel matches perfectly with the concept of them being avatars and aspects of the 266 HD Metatron. Very clever, I must say.

Examples?

See what I said about Atropus and Death above.

If this is the sort of thing that can bring your campaign to a halt you need to pull back from the rules a bit. Sometimes people can't see the wood for the trees.

Well, I think it would make sense for them to count as long quadrupeds for the purpose of space, reach, carrying capacity, and base land speed. A cube or sphere obviously takes up only as much space as its diameter, a cube or sphere is theoretically even more stable than a quadruped (hence the "quadruped" carrying capacity), and they've got a lot of surface area for wings or other methods of flight (hence the "quadruped" base land speed, which is then tripled for land speed).

Logically, fly speed would always be triple land movement speed. So a winged quadruped would have a larger back and therefore a larger potential wingspan (or larger proprtional wingspan to the length of its back that is) so it would fly faster than a same size winged biped.

Is there any way for an immortal to have built-in flight other than Sky Walker or Abnormality (Wings)? Sky Walker is easily shot down with the Nullification cosmic ability, and wings on a planetoid-like immortal seem a bit silly. Although I guess you could take away the actual "wings" and make Abnormality (Wings) give the immortal some other method of flight.

Yes but it has to be monstrous in the first part.

Would a sidereal giant like Surtur count as "monstrous", or would it have to be less humanoid and more quadrupedal?

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

...
Is there any way for an immortal to have built-in flight other than Sky Walker or Abnormality (Wings)? Sky Walker is easily shot down with the Nullification cosmic ability, and wings on a planetoid-like immortal seem a bit silly. Although I guess you could take away the actual "wings" and make Abnormality (Wings) give the immortal some other method of flight.
...

Given that Truestrike, Trueseeing, Mindblank, Ironbody, and Shapechange are all spells that are also equal to a divine ability, I don't see why you couldn't just give an immortal a divine ability that lets it fly without the need for wings.

Also, some creatures, like an Umbral Blot, really only have fly speeds (or other non-land speeds). So, assuming the game is high level enough to where this would be a non-issue, you could just say that the immortal has a fly speed if that would make the most sense for it.

As for the base races and starting sizes for immortals, since said immortal still earns a level adjustment of some kind for it's size, that may put a strain on what kind of character you can play. Ex: A lesser god in a level 80 game could not be Xona-Titanic (the size of a Titanic Universe) simply because the level adjustment would be too great. As a DM making NPCs and deities for your own use, this isn't an issue, but as always, know that having 100 size categories is going to definitely skew things a bit. (Although in actuality it is not preferable to be bigger then like Macro-Small unless you have some power that says you auto-hit or can't be hit)

For races, it really doesn't matter once you hit Demi-god. Odin might be based on human as a base race, but that extra skill and feat really make such a little difference that it may as well not apply. Monstrous or more exotic gods might have a base race (like minotaur) that actually applies. Generally, unless you are looking for a mechanical benefit, you can hand wave race after around demigod. One of the characters in the Immortals Game I have planned is a Dragon Disciple (Red)/Fire elemental Savant, of the Double Fire Portfolios. His base race WAS human, way back in the day. Now we imagine him as a semi-humanoid dragonic figure made of lava. (And if he eats halflings, they Die. No saving throw. )

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

As for the base races and starting sizes for immortals, since said immortal still earns a level adjustment of some kind for it's size, that may put a strain on what kind of character you can play. Ex: A lesser god in a level 80 game could not be Xona-Titanic (the size of a Titanic Universe) simply because the level adjustment would be too great. As a DM making NPCs and deities for your own use, this isn't an issue, but as always, know that having 100 size categories is going to definitely skew things a bit. (Although in actuality it is not preferable to be bigger then like Macro-Small unless you have some power that says you auto-hit or can't be hit)

That's what the minimum HD for each size category would be for. Going by the rules for the Epic Bestiary, for example, an immortal with 100 outsider HD would qualify for only Titanic size as his base size category. If, for whatever reason, he wants to be bigger than that, he would have to take Divine Immensities in order to make his size adjustable.

For races, it really doesn't matter once you hit Demi-god. Odin might be based on human as a base race, but that extra skill and feat really make such a little difference that it may as well not apply. Monstrous or more exotic gods might have a base race (like minotaur) that actually applies. Generally, unless you are looking for a mechanical benefit, you can hand wave race after around demigod. One of the characters in the Immortals Game I have planned is a Dragon Disciple (Red)/Fire elemental Savant, of the Double Fire Portfolios. His base race WAS human, way back in the day. Now we imagine him as a semi-humanoid dragonic figure made of lava. (And if he eats halflings, they Die. No saving throw. )

I thought that an immortal's base race was mostly irrelevant as well, until U_K stated that an immortal's base size category is dependent on how his outsider HD compare with the HD/size advancement of his base race. Now you have to go on a guessing game of "What's X's base race, and what's the HD/size advancement for that race?" if you want to determine the maximum base size category that said immortal can start off as.