Immortals Handbook - Epic Bestiary (Epic Monster Discussion)

[dante58701]

Excellent question...I love PDFs...especially up to date ones.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Axolotl dude!

One question about the bestiary. How on earth is a 21st level party supposed to defeat an Ioun Golem?

The Ioun Golem was just one of those annoying monsters thats really, really difficult to rate. Its abilities take it way beyond double its Hit Dice factor which is problematic in itself. Added to which certain properties of Swarm are basically absolutes, and it all boils down to one complicated construct.

As for its CR, part of that is really because it deals so little damage. So it may not be the easiests monster to defeat but the chances are you will be able to attack-fight-retreat until you get a good handle on how to defeat the creature.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya matey!

So U_K, any idea on when us .pdf owners are going to be getting an updated copy? What with the new CR system and all that jazz.

Just to clarify, of the Bestiary do you mean?

I don't have v6 finished yet either, but I suppose I could always do an update of Vol. 1 with the revised-revised CRs sometime after I have v6 ready (or perhaps in conjunction with v6).

The print version of the Bestiary uses an early version of v6, but I have made a number of improvements since then.

 

[dante58701]

If you were to redo Silver Surfer, in light of the changes that have been done with Ascension, what would his current Divine Stature be?

 

[paradox42]

The print version of the Bestiary uses an early version of v6, but I have made a number of improvements since then.

[Looks at his newly-acquired print copy of the Bestiary closely]
...Oh, wow! I didn't notice that several CRs changed until I saw this post. Several didn't- the Neutronium Golem, for example, still shows 9721.

But I happen to be using an Odium in my second game right now (specifically, a Bygone Odium using the very helpful template published in Legends of Avadnu), and when I flipped to that page I see its CR has dropped from 42 to 33! So my Bygone one is now only CR 27. Maybe I'll consider dropping the Bygone bit, since the party involved is a powerful 20th level (and includes the ECL 22 Prophet character Equinox among others)... but then again, I don't think they have any actual way to kill it right now (since none of them can use Good spells or has a Good-aligned weapon). So perhaps not.

...I also can't help but notice that the Level Adjustment changed as well; it now says -5. Putting aside for the moment the profound event of seeing a negative number on that line in a D&D publication for the first time ever in my memory, does this mean v6 includes a method to calculate an accurate LA along with the CR? That could be very valuable math indeed for the current version of the game!

So, a 50th-level game could have a PC Odium in it. That ought to be a wild and exotic game...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey dante mate!

If you were to redo Silver Surfer, in light of the changes that have been done with Ascension, what would his current Divine Stature be?

Well his divine stature would be exactly the same, unless you were thinking about the movie version of the Silver Surfer which I imagine (as I have not yet seen it) would be significantly weaker.

Of course I don't recall adding Portfolios to his stats on the website - so there is always that I suppose.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey parodox mate!

[Looks at his newly-acquired print copy of the Bestiary closely]

You jammy git!

Whats the quality like? Is it nice and sharp? How sturdy is the cover?

...Oh, wow! I didn't notice that several CRs changed until I saw this post. Several didn't- the Neutronium Golem, for example, still shows 9721.

I couldn't work out the Neutronium Golem's CR to my satisfaction, so I just left it intact.

When I have v6 finished I will take another crack at it.

But I happen to be using an Odium in my second game right now (specifically, a Bygone Odium using the very helpful template published in Legends of Avadnu), and when I flipped to that page I see its CR has dropped from 42 to 33! So my Bygone one is now only CR 27. Maybe I'll consider dropping the Bygone bit, since the party involved is a powerful 20th level (and includes the ECL 22 Prophet character Equinox among others)... but then again, I don't think they have any actual way to kill it right now (since none of them can use Good spells or has a Good-aligned weapon). So perhaps not.

The CRs in the print version are certainly more accurate, but I am not sure how different they will be to the final v6 tallies. I don't think they will be that different. v6 will be universally lowering CRs I think.

One problem there could be with the Bestiary are some of the Save DCs. In cases where 10 + 1/2 HD + Ability Mod. are used to determine DCs, instead use 20 + Ability Mod.

...I also can't help but notice that the Level Adjustment changed as well; it now says -5. Putting aside for the moment the profound event of seeing a negative number on that line in a D&D publication for the first time ever in my memory, does this mean v6 includes a method to calculate an accurate LA along with the CR? That could be very valuable math indeed for the current version of the game!

Level Adjustment is the difference between Hit Dice and ECL.

So, a 50th-level game could have a PC Odium in it. That ought to be a wild and exotic game...

...a way to get back to your gaming roots some might say.

I couldn't resist, sorry.

 

[Fieari]

I still insist the Ioun Golem has to have its CR raised. Being able to run away from it doesn't mean it's balanced for a party of that level. When I see a CR, I expect to be able to use the creature in a guardian-type role where the party has to be able to kill it. It's defenses are WAY too high, and while its damage dealing is low, it almost always can hit with it, so it deals consistant (if slow) damage while the party can do almost nothing to it. Melf's Acid Arrow maybe... but if the only access you have to that spell is Wish/Limited Wish, that gets expensive really fast...

 

[dante58701]

Definitely not talking about the movie version...he really sucked. While I liked how they portrayed his personality, they seriously botched his abilities. I dont buy that his powers are tied to his board. The board was a tool...not what made the man himself.

I was more questioning Superluminal. It's clearly Transcendental now, how could he possibly have it? Or do artifacts allow you to bypass Esoteric Limitations.

 

[paradox42]

You jammy git!

Whats the quality like? Is it nice and sharp? How sturdy is the cover?

The print version has much higher contrast than any printout I've made from the PDFs; the words and art really stand out well. I was shocked it was a hardcover; I had thought they'd be doing a perfect-bound softcover like most Chaosium books (for example) and actually most of Mongoose's own books to date (for example, the Encyclopedia Arcane series, the Quintessentials, and Seas of Blood). A 96-page hardbound book is pretty rare.

That said, the cover is black and extremely tough. I won't be going out of my way to test its toughness, but I wouldn't be surprised if it can take a spilled coke or few and have it just roll right off. I was a little disappointed they didn't expand the cover art to fill the whole front cover, but even so it still looks good.

And I know approximately what a "git" is (the old Monty Python sketch certainly helps), but what's "jammy" mean?

The CRs in the print version are certainly more accurate, but I am not sure how different they will be to the final v6 tallies. I don't think they will be that different. v6 will be universally lowering CRs I think.

It certainly does in this case. Only one or two went up, like the sample Akalich, and that one only by 1.

One problem there could be with the Bestiary are some of the Save DCs. In cases where 10 + 1/2 HD + Ability Mod. are used to determine DCs, instead use 20 + Ability Mod.

I advise against this. Epic character save modifiers can get very, very high, and a DC 50-odd save is actually not that difficult to make for most characters in my 30th-level party provided it's in the good save. Forcing the DC to be 20+ability mod as a maximum means you'd hardly ever see save DCs that high, and almost certainly never before the party can make the saves in their sleep (except on a nat1 of course).