Immortals Handbook - Epic Bestiary (Epic Monster Discussion)

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Fieari mate!

I still insist the Ioun Golem has to have its CR raised.

I think the main problem could be to do with the physical absolute part of the Swarm Template. I think you could possibly allow martial types to deal 1 point of damage per attack on a fine swarm.

Being able to run away from it doesn't mean it's balanced for a party of that level.

I agree, but it is one of those monsters that hovers on the verge of rulebreaking. It just is a terribly awkward opponent, one thats hard to kill, but will likewise take ages to kill 20th-level characters.

When I see a CR, I expect to be able to use the creature in a guardian-type role where the party has to be able to kill it. It's defenses are WAY too high, and while its damage dealing is low, it almost always can hit with it, so it deals consistant (if slow) damage while the party can do almost nothing to it. Melf's Acid Arrow maybe... but if the only access you have to that spell is Wish/Limited Wish, that gets expensive really fast...

But then you can say, it is a mindless opponent and it doesn't have a ranged attack as such. Any 20th-level character can survive multiple rounds worth of attacks.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Definitely not talking about the movie version...he really sucked.

I'm having trouble convincing my friends to go to see a Hollywood film nowadays, apathy has set in due to so many mediocre efforts and they don't all share my optimism of "Well you never know it might be good!?". So I haven't got to see Ghost Rider, Pathfinder, Pirates 3 and Fantastic Four: RotSS this year.

While I liked how they portrayed his personality, they seriously botched his abilities. I dont buy that his powers are tied to his board. The board was a tool...not what made the man himself.

I don't mind the whole thing with the board because as a visual metaphor I think it works fine.

I'm more upset about the whole Galactus element and the incredibly cheap way its resolved (yes I have read spoilers about the movie).

I was more questioning Superluminal. It's clearly Transcendental now, how could he possibly have it? Or do artifacts allow you to bypass Esoteric Limitations.

Well, as his single artifact (granted by an Old One) he could conceivably have such a power...although it is bending the rules somewhat.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

The print version has much higher contrast than any printout I've made from the PDFs; the words and art really stand out well.

The resolution was x8 higher than the pdf (and the file size was about half a gigabyte). So I am expecting the interior to be razor.

I was shocked it was a hardcover; I had thought they'd be doing a perfect-bound softcover like most Chaosium books (for example) and actually most of Mongoose's own books to date (for example, the Encyclopedia Arcane series, the Quintessentials, and Seas of Blood). A 96-page hardbound book is pretty rare.

That is so freaky. Mongoose had been telling me all along its a hardback, and I was thinking to myself, yeah but maybe they really mean its just a sturdy-ish soft-back...I mean 96 page hardback...never seen one of those before. So extra cool points for that.

That said, the cover is black and extremely tough. I won't be going out of my way to test its toughness, but I wouldn't be surprised if it can take a spilled coke or few and have it just roll right off.

It has Improved Toughness - is that what you're saying?

I was a little disappointed they didn't expand the cover art to fill the whole front cover, but even so it still looks good.

Thats weird, the cover I gave them did have the art fill the whole cover, but I know the cover was one of the last minute problems they had in May. I'll wait until my copies arrive, but I'll have a word with them about that and see what the problem was, maybe they can change that for future copies printed...?

How much of a border is there on the cover? I'm guessing 17 mm since thats the border they told me to add to the cover which would wraparound the edges.

And I know approximately what a "git" is (the old Monty Python sketch certainly helps), but what's "jammy" mean?

Jammy means lucky...a stroke of good fortune. I believe in Monty Python's Life of Brian the guy whose been stuck on the prison cell wall for years calls those on their way to be crucified "You lucky, jammy b@stards!"

I advise against this. Epic character save modifiers can get very, very high, and a DC 50-odd save is actually not that difficult to make for most characters in my 30th-level party provided it's in the good save. Forcing the DC to be 20+ability mod as a maximum means you'd hardly ever see save DCs that high, and almost certainly never before the party can make the saves in their sleep (except on a nat1 of course).

Those characters should only be failing saves on a natural '1' though.

The main problem is that monsters CRs are not always worth their Hit Dice. Added to which I advocate much lower levels can take on higher ones.

But you will end up with a situation whereby people will always fail their saves against the Gibborim's stench for instance, or the Amilictli's winds and so forth.

I mean I would rather have a situation whereby the PCs only fail saves on a '1' than a situation whereby PCs only succeed on a '20'. Don't you agree?

 

[Pssthpok]

Got mine. The art is sharp, the layout is nice, and it's interesting to see it in the new font. A+ distinction, Krusty; congratulations! It's nice to know I won't need to open my laptop to get at the Bestiary anymore.

 

[WarDragon]

Those characters should only be failing saves on a natural '1' though.

The devil you say?

I mean I would rather have a situation whereby the PCs only fail saves on a '1' than a situation whereby PCs only succeed on a '20'. Don't you agree?

I would think both are extremely undesirable. The former is the current situation, and it makes any form of attack that offers a save a non-option, unless you have a way to really twink out your DCs, or the enemy has neglected his saves to the point of idiocy. Shouldn't there be a middle ground, where sometimes you make it, sometimes you don't, without rolling extremes?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Pssthpok!

Got mine.

Seems everybody's but mine has arrived.

The art is sharp, the layout is nice, and it's interesting to see it in the new font. A+ distinction, Krusty; congratulations!

Glad it meets your approval.

I really like the fact that its a hardback, the border on the cover is a minor nuisance, but after this length of time I'd take anything.

It's nice to know I won't need to open my laptop to get at the Bestiary anymore.

Don't throw that laptop away just yet - theres always Ascension.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey WarDragon mate!

The devil you say?

I don't mean as a rule, more as a target.

I would think both are extremely undesirable. The former is the current situation, and it makes any form of attack that offers a save a non-option, unless you have a way to really twink out your DCs, or the enemy has neglected his saves to the point of idiocy. Shouldn't there be a middle ground, where sometimes you make it, sometimes you don't, without rolling extremes?

There are a number of factors that need to be considered.

Firstly, characters are going to have to make more saving throws at epic levels because more monsters have special attacks (in fact pretty much every monster has one or more special attacks), an d a lot of times you'll probably need to make multiple saving throws per round. So imagine if you will a character forced to make two saves per round where they save on an '11' (50%). That character is basically charmed, dead, poisoned or whatever, because on average they will fail at least one of those saves per round.

So frequency of saving throws is a factor as to why lower DCs at epic levels are preferable.

A second factor is that of Challenge Rating. Basically, using the 1/2 monster Hit Dice as a DC modifier means you have a situation whereby monster HD often outweighs CR.

e.g. A level 40 PC has a base +22 for their good saves. But they could easily be facing a monster with 60, 70, 80 or more hit dice. That means +30, +35, +40 or more to DCs.

Therefore, using this method to determine DC forces PCs to use Cloaks of Resistance and probably squander feats on boosting saves.

However all that could be in vain because even with a maxed out Cloak of Resistance theres the possibility that the creatures ability scores eclipse that of the PCs. The monster only needs a difference of a mere 20 points (+10 modifier) between its ability score and your save boosting score and your PC is only going to succeed on a '20', because remember the monster also gets a base of 10 to any DC.

So for me, using the 1/2 HD method is basically impossible to balance.

Thats why I would advocate the alternative. DC = 20 + ability mod (+ divine rank if any).

 

[paradox42]

The resolution was x8 higher than the pdf (and the file size was about half a gigabyte). So I am expecting the interior to be razor.

Expectation met. It is.

That is so freaky. Mongoose had been telling me all along its a hardback, and I was thinking to myself, yeah but maybe they really mean its just a sturdy-ish soft-back...I mean 96 page hardback...never seen one of those before. So extra cool points for that.

It has Improved Toughness - is that what you're saying?

Well, it'd probably be as easy to destroy this cover as it would be to destroy the one on their Babylon 5 or Paranoia hardbacks, if one were so inclined. But like I said, I'm not in a mind to test it. As for the 96 pages, they padded it with several blank pages on each side, so it's a little over 100 if you count those.

Thats weird, the cover I gave them did have the art fill the whole cover, but I know the cover was one of the last minute problems they had in May. I'll wait until my copies arrive, but I'll have a word with them about that and see what the problem was, maybe they can change that for future copies printed...?

How much of a border is there on the cover? I'm guessing 17 mm since thats the border they told me to add to the cover which would wraparound the edges.

It's a little more than that, but it's not like black is difficult to extend. I suspect they did that so they wouldn't have to worry about losing art if the machine gets off-center.

Jammy means lucky...a stroke of good fortune. I believe in Monty Python's Life of Brian the guy whose been stuck on the prison cell wall for years calls those on their way to be crucified "You lucky, jammy b@stards!"

Seen the movie, forgot the line. I best remember the song at the end, and that mainly because it's also used in the stage production (which is absolutely brilliant, BTW, if you ever get a chance to see it). As for being lucky, my luck is really in where I live- being a Chicagoland gamer means I have access to Games Plus, the best game store in the known universe. They got the Bestiary in on Friday, I picked up my copy on Saturday.

Those characters should only be failing saves on a natural '1' though.

The main problem is that monsters CRs are not always worth their Hit Dice. Added to which I advocate much lower levels can take on higher ones.

But you will end up with a situation whereby people will always fail their saves against the Gibborim's stench for instance, or the Amilictli's winds and so forth.

I mean I would rather have a situation whereby the PCs only fail saves on a '1' than a situation whereby PCs only succeed on a '20'. Don't you agree?

No, because as Wardragon mentioned I feel they're both undesirable. When a situation arises in which the PCs can only fail on a 1, an intelligent opponent will simply not waste time using the attacks which have save DCs that low- if 19 out of 20 fail to have any effect, there's really no reason to try using it in combat. So it essentially turns into a case of the creature not having the ability at all.

Furthermore, you have to keep in mind that many abilities exist which allow PCs to reroll dice- an example is the granted power of the Luck Domain. Therefore, the DM should assume the chances of failure on a natural 1 become 1 in 400 instead of 1 in 20- because a natural 1 will always be rerolled. Likewise, the chances of a natural 20 being rolled increase, though I don't recall the precise numbers to quote them.

If I had to choose one over the other, I'd prefer to err on the side of challenge and say the "natural 20 only" situation is better- it means the players will respect and fear the monster, and isn't that what monsters are supposed to be all about? The "natural 1 only" situation just neuters the beast and makes it seem like a walk in the park- free XP for the taking.

 

[historian]

I just received my hard copy of the Bestiary.

I really like the layout and size -- I think it's more along the line of the standard 8.5 by 11 inches -- I like this.

Congratulations U_K, the work you put into this really springs off the page in true book format.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Expectation met. It is.

Of course now I have to out-do myself for the next one.

Well, it'd probably be as easy to destroy this cover as it would be to destroy the one on their Babylon 5 or Paranoia hardbacks, if one were so inclined. But like I said, I'm not in a mind to test it. As for the 96 pages, they padded it with several blank pages on each side, so it's a little over 100 if you count those.

Dust cover pages, okay.

It's a little more than that, but it's not like black is difficult to extend. I suspect they did that so they wouldn't have to worry about losing art if the machine gets off-center.

I'll be having a word with them, it could have been a problem from my end, but I won't know exactly until I get my own copies in hand.

Is the book the same shape as the Players Handbook for instance?

Seen the movie, forgot the line. I best remember the song at the end, and that mainly because it's also used in the stage production (which is absolutely brilliant, BTW, if you ever get a chance to see it). As for being lucky, my luck is really in where I live- being a Chicagoland gamer means I have access to Games Plus, the best game store in the known universe. They got the Bestiary in on Friday, I picked up my copy on Saturday.

You could be twinned with my local gaming store in Belfast which is the worst game store in the known universe! Try this on for irony...I ordered the Tome of Battle last Summer and I remind them every month...they haven't even given me a pdf with just the text or nothing.

No, because as Wardragon mentioned I feel they're both undesirable. When a situation arises in which the PCs can only fail on a 1, an intelligent opponent will simply not waste time using the attacks which have save DCs that low- if 19 out of 20 fail to have any effect, there's really no reason to try using it in combat. So it essentially turns into a case of the creature not having the ability at all.

You are forgetting a few things.

1. It could be an automatic ability: Stench, Gaze, Aura, Poison Bite etc.
2. It could be one of multiple abilities...and you can cast multiple spells.
3. Sometimes save or die effects will be your best course of attack.

Furthermore, you have to keep in mind that many abilities exist which allow PCs to reroll dice- an example is the granted power of the Luck Domain.

I don't think there are enough to stipulate the majority will have such abilities - because they definately won't.

Therefore, the DM should assume the chances of failure on a natural 1 become 1 in 400 instead of 1 in 20- because a natural 1 will always be rerolled. Likewise, the chances of a natural 20 being rolled increase, though I don't recall the precise numbers to quote them.

Those abilities are few and far between.

If I had to choose one over the other, I'd prefer to err on the side of challenge and say the "natural 20 only" situation is better- it means the players will respect and fear the monster, and isn't that what monsters are supposed to be all about? The "natural 1 only" situation just neuters the beast and makes it seem like a walk in the park- free XP for the taking.

If that particular ability is the monsters only recourse then it could well be a walk-over, but how often does it come down to that for epic monsters? Not all that often, they usually have a variety of attack methods.

I just think you guys are in for a rude awakening over this. Did the Surtur example teach us nothing? Added to which you may as well change the number of artifacts allowed to three and have one in-built Cloak of Resistance - because thats what you are going to need.

Not to mention the disparity between Spell DCs and Ability DCs...but heh, I only work here.