Immortals Handbook - Epic Bestiary (Epic Monster Discussion)

[WarDragon]

Hey WarDragon!
When you take the pluses out of weapons and armour they are still valid magic items.

Define "valid." Because you and I seem to be operating under different meanings of the term.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey hey, UK!

Howdy mate!

And I'm saying that this assertion is wrong.

Lemme ask this: what makes you feel this way?

Is it your work in G&M? If yes, then the problem comes from your own builds, and the remedy lies therein, not in changing how we calculate save DCs into something that doesn't take into account the creature's HD.

Well, its basically down to mathmatics as far as I can tell.

Its a 'versus' thing.

On the one side you have:

10 + 1/2 HD + Ability Score + Divine Rank + (possible feats/abilities)

On the other you have

2 + 1/2 HD (lets assume 'Good' saves) + Ability Score + Divine Rank + (possible feats/abilities) + Cloak of Resistance or similar item.

At this stage so far so good. But lets look a little closer.

A) Okay, we start of 8 points down but thats only a minor issue at this stage, which you could say feats will balance to an extent.

B) How many times are your party going to face a monster with more Hit Dice than them. The answer is quite often, especially at epic levels, and that gap will widen (especially between the party and the BBEG for instance) the higher things go.

e.g. Xixecal 72 HD vs. CR 36 (DC/Save difference 18), Iron Colossus 96 HD vs. CR 33 (DC/Save difference 32), Living Vault 96 HD vs. CR 33, etc.

The HD to CR range is something like 1:1 up to 3:1 or more. Lets assume every adventure you will meet at least a few who fall somewhere in between 2:1.

That means to level that gap PCs need a Cloak of Resistance (or similar item) giving a bonus equal to half their level.

C) But there is also a potential disparity with regards Ability Scores, because its easier for monsters to have higher ability scores than PCs, added to which they only need one really high score to boost a potentially fatal DC, whereas PCs need to boost three ability scores - and chances are none of those scores will be the PCs main attribute anyway!

Average monster ability score (for Charisma and scores which normally affect DCs) is something like 10 + 1/2 HD.

This immediately brings us back to point #B in that monsters will typically have higher Hit Dice than PCs. But even disregarding that, the monster will almost certainly have higher ability scores than the PC in the key DC to Save confrontations.

Its difficult to gauge the average PC ability scores but off the top of my head I'd say something like 12 + 1/8 HD.

Which means at 40th-level a PC will have an average score of around 17, while the monster with 40 HD will have a score of about 30.

So again you have a further discrepancy of roughly +1/4 to the DC per HD of the monster.

So now that Cloak of Resistance must be approx. equal your PC level, just to keep you on a level playing field.

D) Divine Rank is only a minor factor, but again it will almost certainly boost an enemy deity more than it will your PCs simply because chances are you will be putting multiple PCs against a more powerful Deity.

So in virtually every epic adventure you will meet a handful of creatures who will force DCs that beat your Saves by a number roughly akin to your level.

This means that by the book, you will always fail saves against these monsters on anything but a '20' from around Level 40...because even if you have the maximum possible Cloak of Resistance in the book, the DC will still beat your save by 20 (and thats not counting the 8 point headstart and possible divine rank discrepancy).

So even forcing Cloaks of Resistance is ultimately futile.

To postpone the inevitable you have to force Wardragon's Mega Cloaks that give all the different bonuses to saves. But even that only delays things for 40 more levels or so.

 

[dante58701]

That's a horrid thought...buuuuut...

I kinda like the saves being difficult. It's far more realistic.

The problem is easily remedied by not having PCs encounter anything that is drastically more powerful than the adventuring party, unless they have some sort of defenses.

This potential problem you mention is where immunities often come in to play...or just really good tactics.

Another thing you aren't taking into account is this...

...unless you're in a solo quest (you and DM only), you are part of an adventuring group. This means that you will likely have access to Heal, Raise Dead, Resurrection, True Resurrection, Miracle, Wish, or any number of spells not typically available to monsters.

Even most Epic Monsters dont have access to all magic spells or psionic powers. This means that PC will have their own advantages.

Advantages which, if use properly, will decimate the average Epic Monster.

So I fail to see how their DCs are such a big deal.

*Gaming Session*

DM - You have been disintegrated.

Player 1 - "Oh crap!!!"

Player 2 - "Don't worry my Cleric has Miracle."

Player 3 - "I'll keep the beast at bay while you bring her back to life."

Epic Monster - "Where do all these damnable adventurers keep getting these annoying spells!?! Why wont they just stay dead?!?"

 

[Fieari]

U_K has stated his opinion that gods should not be able to be resurrected. That said, unless you're defending your home turf, you'll just be sent home when you "die", unable to manifest back on that plane for a while.

Which reminds me: U_K, while you've mentioned these things on the forum, I don't think you've specified them at all in the book itself. You might want to look into that.

 

[paradox42]

Its difficult to gauge the average PC ability scores but off the top of my head I'd say something like 12 + 1/8 HD.

Which means at 40th-level a PC will have an average score of around 17, while the monster with 40 HD will have a score of about 30.

Your math breaks here. Without responding to the rest of the post, I really must check this formula here as being unrealistically low- I would venture to say wildly low.

PCs at 40th level will have spent so much money/resources/magic on increasing their ability scores that the average numbers will be well above 17, if not far above it. If a PC in an Epic game that high has not gone out of his way to acquire enough Wishes or Tomes of Whatever to increase his inherent bonuses to all +5s, then either the DM is being very stingy or the player just isn't trying. Anybody who actually starts a game at 40th level is guaranteed to see most if not all of his players listing "read; exhausted" Tomes for every ability score- they're easily cheap enough by that level that every PC can spend the funds for all six +5 books without putting a large dent in the resource value available at that level (40th-level PCs start with 13.6 million; the books cost a paltry 137 thousand each). Items to increase ability scores are just as easy to acquire by that time, but more importantly, the Epic spellcasters in the party will be using serious buffs like that "+30 CHA to all allies within 30 feet of me" Aura of Glory that the Sorceress in my original Epic game uses. She's only 32nd level overall, and she researched that spell before she was even 30th.

The cumulative effect of all this is difficult to overstate. Even if a PC has an ability score less than 20 by this level, it is guaranteed to be in a score that that character simply doesn't care about because its bonuses don't affect his or her specialty- for example, the sorceress mentioned above has a STR score below 20 (actually, I believe it's the one score she's never bothered to get a Manual for increasing- but I wouldn't be surprised if she does get one sometime within the next 8 levels since she, like the others, is practically swimming in resources right now). The scores that actually matter to the character- and I can guarantee that any player who pays attention will find that the save-boosting trio matters before reaching Epic levels in the first place- will be boosted. Spellcasters other than Divine ones may not increase WIS all that much, but they will do it for the slight boost to Will saves and the (more important) boost to the many WIS-based skills, particularly Spot and Listen (no PC likes to be caught by surprise). Melee tanks may not increase DEX much, but even they will appreciate having better Reflex saves and (more importantly) better initiative, plus access to new feats that help AC such as Dodge and others that help attacks such as Two-Weapon Fighting. And there isn't a character in the game who won't appreciate the all-important boost to hit points that come with a higher CON score- the Fortitude save bonus is really just icing on that cake for many.

The save-boosting ability scores of 40th-level PCs, in other words, will be considerably higher than a laughably low 17. They may not be "prime requisites" for most, but they are important enough even without considering the boost afforded to saves that they will be earmarked for increases (not to mention, having higher scores put into them in the first place during the die-rolling or point-buying of character creation). A character who focuses all powers and resources on increasing the prime requisite, and neglects the rest, is not going to survive to 40th level in the first place.

 

[paradox42]

U_K has stated his opinion that gods should not be able to be resurrected. That said, unless you're defending your home turf, you'll just be sent home when you "die", unable to manifest back on that plane for a while.

Which reminds me: U_K, while you've mentioned these things on the forum, I don't think you've specified them at all in the book itself. You might want to look into that.

UK has stated that opinion, but it's one of his opinions that I at least am completely ignoring. The rules state quite clearly that Outsiders of any sort can be brought back with a True Resurrection spell, not to mention Wish or Miracle. I see no problem with sticking to this convention- and any assumptions made about the mechanics of the game at very high or Epic levels must take this rule into account, since it is one. It may be unpalatable to some, but then again, any sort of coming back from the dead is unpalatable to some and they simply house-rule it out.

 

[dante58701]

WOTC were definitely including deities (outsiders) in that blanket rule. Not to mention...not all epic PCs are necessarily going to be divine or even immortal. Certainly on their way, though not an absolute.

I personally have a Swashbuckler 50/Fighter 50/Rogue 50/Scout 50 who is "immortal" purely by way of feats, though is not an outsider, nor is he divine, nor undead.

I would treat a slain immortal as temporarily or permanently slain depending on the manner in which they were slain and where they were slain.

Certain abilities prevent resurrection. Rectify for example. Also...I would drop them in quintessence, ect. if they had been permanently slain.

Dying is a sure fire way to lose you divinity, but it doesn't mean you will stay dead.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Well, since a deity's 'real body' is the embodiment of it's divine essence, destroying it should AT LEAST dissipate the deity's quintessence. This means that any dead god brought back to life won't be a god, thusly you cannot resurrect a deity. This might even entail the destruction of that deity's soul, meaning even True Rez won't work, and may require epic magic. (Heck, I may even hazard a suggestion that an epic or otherwise adventurer, who suffers soul-destruction and is somehow later revived should forfeit all acquired quintessence)
I don't think there is anything wrong with resurrecting a god, but if a god can 'just' be resurrected like most PCs, what is the point of killing it if some 17th level cleric can just zap the god back to life and full power?

 

[Axolotl]

So an Immortal should be easier to kill than a Mortal .

but if a god can 'just' be resurrected like most PCs, what is the point of killing it if some 17th level cleric can just zap the god back to life and full power?

The same could be said of anything of epic of even a bit lower level.

 

[dante58701]

The Immortal could be resurrected easily...just like anyone else.

It would just lose all of it's quintessence...meaning yes...it isn't a god anymore.

That has always been my ruling.