immortals handbook

[Upper_Krust]

Hello Krust!

Hiya mate!

You bet I do.

Sounds like a good number to me.

I did a bit more research and I now have more than 70 possibles.

As in like 60 out of 64 in terms of power (with 64 being the highest)?

No I don't have stats for Walker yet so I cannot determine his position.

On the list I have at the moment I think the Watchers are last (of those cosmic beings I have stats for); though the Elders of the Universe are tricky to rate properly since their stats are poor but they gain every power of a certain level (generally well beyond their status).

I've never seen MSH RPG stats for Walker either, but I suspect he would rate out at about Class 5000 across every attribute and power.

Not necessarily, though after he drained the souls of every being in his galaxy I would suspect he would be close to that level of power.

I would anticipate Walker was the equivalent of an Overgod (before the soul draining) and a First One afterwards.

Great stuff, I seem to recall that the Living Tribunal had to "split" that particular universe off from the rest of the Mulitiverse because Korvac had become too powerful.

Thats right!

I love the line at the end where the Watcher says: "...and because of one mans dream the number of alternate universes in the multiverse shall always be one less than infinite."

My personal favorite What If? was What If Wolverine became Lord of the Vampires?, I highly recommend it.

I haven't seen that one yet, but I do have a 'What If' that indirectly features Wolverine: Lord of Vampires, called "What if the Watcher saved the Universe."

Theres a good What If featuring a fight between Wolverine and Hulk, with a great ending (I won't spoil it for you).

Abraxus (sp.) is one that probably wasn't ever statted by Marvel,

Hopefully some fan somewhere has done stats for him. I ordered the whole Death of Glactus/Abraxas storyline months ago but it hasn't come through yet.

and seems on about the level of Eternity/Infinity - Death/Oblivion (and is not coincidentally apparently the greater evil that Galactus' presence squelches).

I need to get those issues to get the full gist of what Abraxas is.

Reading between the lines Abraxas probably doesn't gain his full power/incarnation until he has slain the Galactus of every alternate universe...?

The Celestial Exitar the Exterminator was, IMO, never adequately statted. The True Beyonders also were left out I think.

Yeah I am aware of both the above.

I don't think Exitar would be much beyond the other Celestials.

When I remember my other two questions I'll fire away.

Thanks, Dude.

Okay.

 

[historian]

Thanks for the reply Krust!

I did a bit more research and I now have more than 70 possibles.

Heh heh, that should more than cover it, and give the gamer room to extrapolate in the event there could be some obscure cosmic power left out (though I doubt you'll 'miss' anything, some things will probably need to be excluded) or if someone wants to create their own.

On the list I have at the moment I think the Watchers are last (of those cosmic beings I have stats for); though the Elders of the Universe are tricky to rate properly since their stats are poor but they gain every power of a certain level (generally well beyond their status).

Agreed 100%, and if I'm remembering correctly, some Elders (both in comic portrayals and MSH RPG stats) were seemingly substantially more powerful than others.

I ordered the whole Death of Glactus/Abraxas storyline months ago but it hasn't come through yet. I need to get those issues to get the full gist of what Abraxas is. Reading between the lines Abraxas probably doesn't gain his full power/incarnation until he has slain the Galactus of every alternate universe...?

Makes sense to me.

I love the line at the end where the Watcher says: "...and because of one mans dream the number of alternate universes in the multiverse shall always be one less than infinite."

Korvac was (is) one tough cookie, I would have loved to have seen him cross paths with one of the stronger versions of the Magus.

 

[Revenge of the Bjorn]

Hmm..speaking of Abraxas, does the Krust have any thoughts on the Gnostic deity of the same name?

 

[Alzrius]

By the way for all you comics fans I have developed an iron clad way of converting Marvel* Super-Heroes and Villains to 3.5 D&D.

*Or indeed DC characters, provided they have been converted to the original Marvel Super-Heroes RPG stats.

In fact its so good I was considering approaching Marvel (in the near future) and asking them if I could release a supplement for the Immortals Handbook which was akin to a profile on all their top Cosmic beings. Sort of like a Cosmic Bestiary, Marvel style.

What do you any of you think of the idea?

Hrm...I'm gonna have to think about that one...gee...DO IT!! That'd be so frickin' awesome!!

Just out of curiosity, this is using the Marvel RPG as a basis first right (which Marvel RPG? Old or new)? Either way we probably won't be seeing Krona, from the new JLA*Avengers saga, which Im counting the days to the next part of.

Other than that, I'd look forward to seeing, as a sampling, Galactus, Eternity/Infinity, The Living Tribunal, Atlez (though he is dead now, so maybe Atleza), Mistress Death, The Watcher, Lord Chaos, Master Order, and several others that may or may not be considerd Cosmic depending on how you look at it (The In-Betweener, the Grand Master, etc.)

It'd be nice if you could get DC also, though I don't know as much about them.

Truth to tell, what I'd be realy tickled to see would be if you could do something for the briefly-created Amalgaverse, from back during the Marve vs DC debacle. I love crossovers, and that was the penultimate one. That's probably one heck of a pipe dream on my part though.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey historian mate!

Thanks for the reply Krust!

No problem mate.

Heh heh, that should more than cover it, and give the gamer room to extrapolate in the event there could be some obscure cosmic power left out (though I doubt you'll 'miss' anything, some things will probably need to be excluded) or if someone wants to create their own.

Everytime I do a search on the internet I find new characters. Still the odds are that something is going to be missing.

Also some of the beings just don't have MSH RPG stats, its as simple as that. The only way for me to create the stats myself would be to own a substantial portion of the applicable issues.

For a number of entries I would simply take the most obvious or interesting example of a group. For example in detailing Odin there is no need to detail other skyfathers.

Here is a list of the beings I don't currently have (original MSH RPG) stats for:

Abraxas
Walker
Eon
Entropy
Epoch
Kronos
Anomaly
Satannish (possibly similar to Mephisto?)
Cytorrak (I think if I find the stats for one mystic god I would have a fair appraisal of the rest)
Unimind
Desak (probably on a par with Odin*)
Majeston Zelia (probably on a par with Odin*)
Mangog (probably on a par with Odin*)
Millenius
Dromedan
Xorr

*Odin has two incarnations of power; dependant on whether he is in Asgard or outside Asgard. Desak is probably akin to the former and Mangog the latter. While Zelia would have her own realm where she would be more powerful (called Narcissus)

I can probably make a fair appraisal of the Unimind; Desak; Majeston Zelia; Mangog and Dromedan. Also I may drop Millenius and Entropy altogether.

The rest I don't really know enough about.

Agreed 100%, and if I'm remembering correctly, some Elders (both in comic portrayals and MSH RPG stats) were seemingly substantially more powerful than others.

Yes, they are annoying to discern. The Gardener seems the most powerful followed by the Grandmaster.

Korvac was (is) one tough cookie, I would have loved to have seen him cross paths with one of the stronger versions of the Magus.

I presume you mean Warlocks alter-ego?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Bjorn mate!

Hmm..speaking of Abraxas, does the Krust have any thoughts on the Gnostic deity of the same name?

Of course.

I was actually considering including Abraxas in the IH long before I heard he was a Marvel super-villain; which was why I am interested in seeing how Marvel treated the idea.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Alzrius mate!

Hrm...I'm gonna have to think about that one...gee...DO IT!! That'd be so frickin' awesome!!

I appreciate the support mate!

...of course at this point the idea is nothing more than a pipe dream; albeit one with potential to interest Marvel. Since you would think they have nothing to lose...though that could just be willful optimism on my part?

Just out of curiosity, this is using the Marvel RPG as a basis first right (which Marvel RPG? Old or new)?

The original (yellow box?) MSH RPG rules.

Either way we probably won't be seeing Krona, from the new JLA*Avengers saga,

True, he is seemingly capable of destroying a universe so hes pretty powerful.

It will be interesting to see how he survived the Grandmasters multi-artifact augmented assault.

which Im counting the days to the next part of.

Didn't I tell you that comic was amazing! Trust your uncle Krust.

Other than that, I'd look forward to seeing, as a sampling, Galactus, Eternity/Infinity, The Living Tribunal, Atlez (though he is dead now, so maybe Atleza),

Right enough, I forgot about Atleza. DOH!

Mistress Death, The Watcher, Lord Chaos, Master Order, and several others that may or may not be considerd Cosmic depending on how you look at it (The In-Betweener, the Grand Master, etc.)

I don't have the time to 'work up' the stats at the moment, and you have mentioned 10% of the (proposed) supplement right there. Its unlikely I would post up such a chunk, you might get one or two; perhaps the In-Betweener and Galactus. But don't go holding your breath for these. I still have important IH business to take care of.

It'd be nice if you could get DC also, though I don't know as much about them.

I virtually don't know anything about them, although I did come across a forum thread following a google search where people were arguing whether DC or Marvel had the toughest characters and some people started posting vast lists of powerful characters from both universes.

Truth to tell, what I'd be realy tickled to see would be if you could do something for the briefly-created Amalgaverse, from back during the Marve vs DC debacle. I love crossovers, and that was the penultimate one. That's probably one heck of a pipe dream on my part though.

I only have one issue of 'Thorion'; with Thanoseid and so forth.

 

[historian]

Evening Krust!

Here is a list of the beings I don't currently have (original MSH RPG) stats for:

Abraxas
Walker
Eon
Entropy
Epoch
Kronos
Anomaly
Satannish (possibly similar to Mephisto?)
Cytorrak (I think if I find the stats for one mystic god I would have a fair appraisal of the rest)
Unimind
Desak (probably on a par with Odin*)
Majeston Zelia (probably on a par with Odin*)
Mangog (probably on a par with Odin*)
Millenius
Dromedan
Xorr

Most (if not all) of these folk were never covered in any official MSG RPG publication that I am aware of. Were I you I wouldn't hesitate to strike out on my own though, as good as the MSH RPG stuff is, I found myself taking issue with the way certain beings were detailed (being in my mind either over or under -powered).

In regards to the Elders:

Yes, they are annoying to discern. The Gardener seems the most powerful followed by the Grandmaster.

Agreed, with Champion being the weakest (below Silver Surfer?) and the Runner being somewhere in the middle (and, I think, pretty clearly more powerful than the Surfer. Don't have much of a read on the Possessor.

I presume you mean Warlocks alter-ego?

Indeed, and not the techno-organic 'dad' from the Alpha Flight series. For whatever reason I always had an easy time despising the Magus (what is it that they say, a good villain makes you hate him, while a bad one makes you love him?). He was such a smack-talking punk, and had a creepy cosmic thing about him, but was clearly a more highly evolved extremely powerful version of Warlock, and thus a threat to end the adventuring careers of many of my favorite characters. Conversely I always liked Korvac (I mean c'mon, the guy actually slew a true immortal w/o breaking a sweat), who was never really defeated and had an ironic humane quality about him despite that his apsirations and existence had gone far beyond anything remotely human.


Oh yeah, a couple of quick questions

1. Awhile back you were kind enough to divulge that Thanos w/the IG would clock in at around CR 13000. I'm wondering, since you have changed the sidereal and eternal scaling, would this estimate change?

2. Also due to a change in the sideral and eternal changes, has the supernal grouping changed substantially?

3. Do you view any of these Marvel dudes as supernals or potential supernals (besides 'Heart of the Universe Thanos' )?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Evening Krust!

Hiya mate!

Most (if not all) of these folk were never covered in any official MSG RPG publication that I am aware of.

I still think there are stats for Mangog; Unimind and Kronos are out there somewhere, though I haven't seen them as yet.

Were I you I wouldn't hesitate to strike out on my own though, as good as the MSH RPG stuff is, I found myself taking issue with the way certain beings were detailed (being in my mind either over or under -powered).

Of course you want to be as close to the canon information as possible.

I would of course have to step in where there is conflicting canon information.

In regards to the Elders:

Agreed, with Champion being the weakest (below Silver Surfer?) and the Runner being somewhere in the middle (and, I think, pretty clearly more powerful than the Surfer. Don't have much of a read on the Possessor.

I was really amazed how weak the Champion was, I mean hes a cosmic power who has been studying martial arts for a billion years you would think he would be half-decent.

Indeed, and not the techno-organic 'dad' from the Alpha Flight series.

I always thought he looked funky, though I never read any Alpha Flight so I am only familiar with the character via biographies.

For whatever reason I always had an easy time despising the Magus (what is it that they say, a good villain makes you hate him, while a bad one makes you love him?). He was such a smack-talking punk, and had a creepy cosmic thing about him, but was clearly a more highly evolved extremely powerful version of Warlock, and thus a threat to end the adventuring careers of many of my favorite characters.

The Infinity War series was pretty good, notable for the fact it was also the beginning of Thanos 'redemption' of sorts.

Conversely I always liked Korvac (I mean c'mon, the guy actually slew a true immortal w/o breaking a sweat),

Well it was only the Collector.

who was never really defeated and had an ironic humane quality about him despite that his apsirations and existence had gone far beyond anything remotely human.

Korvac was an excellent character, a misguided villain that you could sympathise with.

Oh yeah, a couple of quick questions

Fire away!

1. Awhile back you were kind enough to divulge that Thanos w/the IG would clock in at around CR 13000. I'm wondering, since you have changed the sidereal and eternal scaling, would this estimate change?

Anythings plausible. I still estimate its in the region of 10,000.

2. Also due to a change in the sideral and eternal changes, has the supernal grouping changed substantially?

Yes.

3. Do you view any of these Marvel dudes as supernals or potential supernals (besides 'Heart of the Universe Thanos' )?

Well there I am still unsure as to the true nature of both the Infinites or the true Beyonders. So I may have to take a few liberties with them.

 

[historian]

Quote:
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Originally Posted by historian
1. Awhile back you were kind enough to divulge that Thanos w/the IG would clock in at around CR 13000. I'm wondering, since you have changed the sidereal and eternal scaling, would this estimate change?
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Anythings plausible. I still estimate its in the region of 10,000.

Excellent, substantially more powerful than Eternity, but (perhaps?) a notch under LT.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by historian
2. Also due to a change in the sideral and eternal changes, has the supernal grouping changed substantially?
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Yes.

I take it this means you've gone beyond 80 quindecillion! Man, I would love to see the gift(s) that these guys get.