immortals handbook

[Upper_Krust]

Hello,

Hiya mate!

You can look at it now. Well, most of it, anyway.

Yeah I scanned over it earlier.

If I get time to study it in detail I will be sure and post some comments.

 

[Gez]

Regarding epic and supernaturalism.

An average commoner has 2 hit points, and saves at +0.

An average non-elite 20th-level fighter (I know the concept of non-elite 20th-level character is weird, but anyway) has 175 hit points and saves at +15 or +7.

An average PC fighter at 20th-level will have well over 250 hit points and all saves at at least +10, between stat-boosting items and cloak of resistance.

Of course, the hit point system is abstract. It represents also your capacity to dodge, yadda-yadda, needless to debate about that.

But don't you think that, whatever it represents, the fact that by mere virtue of being close to epic levels, you have a hundred times as much HP as someone with the same genetic baggage as you is bordering supernatural?

I could also speak about a barbarian's damage reduction, and his impressive rages. +6 to Strength ? That's huge.

Or about the rogue's special capacities. Improved Evasion by itself is seemingly magical. There's a big fireball in the room, and you are totally unscathed? Even though you didn't exited the blast area?

To say nothing about the monk...

Wether you wish it or no, it's a fantasy game involving fantasy hero that do fantasy things. Even those who don't use this reduced subset of magic that is casting spells have gradual access to supernatural might.

It has frequently been recommended than in a low-magic setting, you limit character levels to 10, and possibly force spellcasters to multiclass.

In a no-magic setting, you should limit character levels to 5, and remove spellcasters entirely.

D&D is built in a way that tie the level of magic with the level of characters. If you don't want that, play d20 Modern.

 

[Planesdragon]

non-Magical Epic & Epic Skills

Or can you think of something 'epic' that doesn't encroach upon things we don't understand?

Oh, sure:

• Fighters so skilled they can slice rocks with a single blow
• Archers so accurate they can split arrows, regularly
• Runners who can actually outpace a horse.
• Theives who can open locks despite the worst of conditions
• Men so charismatic they lead whole continents to war
• Rangers who can follow tracks with an almost supernatural cunning.

All of these save the first, IMO, can be the result of having 21st+ level ability; some are even imaginable or historical fact here on Earth.

For supernatural Epic skills, why not simply have new skills that cannot be bought until Epic Level, that are all semi-magical? I.e., instead of Balance having any DC higher than 40 or so, a new skill called "Epic Balance" could be used.

 

[Gez]

For supernatural Epic skills, why not simply have new skills that cannot be bought until Epic Level, that are all semi-magical? I.e., instead of Balance having any DC higher than 40 or so, a new skill called "Epic Balance" could be used.

That would be a bit clunky. From a design point of view, I'm already upset with the plethora of Epic This feats who are merely an improved version of another feat.

Epic skills?

By disconnection the regular skill and its epic variant, you open the doors to all sorts of weird stuff. Like a rogue 27, with 30 ranks in Epic Balance and 5 in Mundane Balance. As a result, he would have an easier way walking on clouds than walking on a tightrope.

To prevent this, you may tie Epic Skills with Mundane Skills. Your rank in an Epic Skill cannot be greater than in a mundane skill. Congratulations, you're just complicating the game by introducing new weird and unecessary rules.


If you really think it is possible to be Level 25+ and still totally mundane, absolutely free of the slightiest hint at anything vaguely supernatural, here's how you could do it:

Mark skill uses as Extraordinary, Supernatural, and Spell-Like. Then, feats or class abilities would unlock the Su and Sp uses for the skills; in the same way Animal Empathy is a use of Handle Animals that require a class ability.

 

[Planesdragon]

That would be a bit clunky. From a design point of view, I'm already upset with the plethora of Epic This feats who are merely an improved version of another feat.

Acutally, I think that Epic Feats which merely increase a statistic are the best of the Epic Feats. D&D/d20/Prometheus as it is breaks down at high levels due to "ability creep."

By disconnection the regular skill and its epic variant, you open the doors to all sorts of weird stuff. Like a rogue 27, with 30 ranks in Epic Balance and 5 in Mundane Balance. As a result, he would have an easier way walking on clouds than walking on a tightrope.

Easy fix for that: require X ranks of a non-Epic feat as an additional prerequisite.

Congratulations, you're just complicating the game by introducing new weird and unecessary rules.

Aren't we discussing new rules for Epic Play? If the new addition makes the Epic Game easier / more fun to play, then I don't think that it's unnecessary.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Aren't we discussing new rules for Epic Play? If the new addition makes the Epic Game easier / more fun to play, then I don't think that it's unnecessary.

I think that breaking it into two skills, one requiring ranks in the other for each task, is time-consuming and less rewarding than the alternative. What about the rogue 'I'm the master of balance' who took Acrobatic (or whatever the Balance 2/2 is) and Skill Focus (Balance)?

No, I like the system the way it is and would be severely disappointed if it worked any other way.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Planesdragon mate!

Oh, sure:

• Fighters so skilled they can slice rocks with a single blow
• Archers so accurate they can split arrows, regularly
• Runners who can actually outpace a horse.
• Theives who can open locks despite the worst of conditions
• Men so charismatic they lead whole continents to war
• Rangers who can follow tracks with an almost supernatural cunning.

All of these save the first, IMO, can be the result of having 21st+ level ability; some are even imaginable or historical fact here on Earth.

Aside from runners who could outpace a horse, none of the above grabs me as especially epic at all. All the rest can be achieved in the real world, let alone a mundane fantasy world (splitting arrows regularly might be pushing things though).

For supernatural Epic skills, why not simply have new skills that cannot be bought until Epic Level, that are all semi-magical? I.e., instead of Balance having any DC higher than 40 or so, a new skill called "Epic Balance" could be used.

It all seems a bit unnecessary. I just can't fathom anyone wanting to play an epic levels campaign and keep the proceedings mundane. I mean its anathema to what epic is all about.

If you want to run a low-magic grim and gritty campaign then there will be no need (and likely few candidates) for epic levels.

Epic campaigns should mean something different, not simply bigger numbers, otherwise you are just fooling yourself.

Likewise I hope to show that Immortals campaigns mean something different again. For too long people have just went about roleplaying gods without actually roleplaying a god...by that I mean if you asked them what it meant they would probably say "Well I'm 60th-level and have all these cool powers and items". Theres nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but to me they are missing out on the crux of what roleplaying a god is all about.

So epic campaigns must offer something different, otherwise they are not epic, just regular.

Just as Immortal campaigns must offer something different, otherwise you are not really roleplaying a deity, but simply an epic character.

 

[historian]

Thus spake Krust

Epic campaigns should mean something different, not simply bigger numbers, otherwise you are just fooling yourself.

Likewise I hope to show that Immortals campaigns mean something different again. For too long people have just went about roleplaying gods without actually roleplaying a god...by that I mean if you asked them what it meant they would probably say "Well I'm 60th-level and have all these cool powers and items". Theres nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but to me they are missing out on the crux of what roleplaying a god is all about.

So epic campaigns must offer something different, otherwise they are not epic, just regular.

Just as Immortal campaigns must offer something different, otherwise you are not really roleplaying a deity, but simply an epic character.

Man Krust, that was downright inspirational (applause)!

 

[Roman]

Oh, sure:

• Fighters so skilled they can slice rocks with a single blow
• Archers so accurate they can split arrows, regularly
• Runners who can actually outpace a horse.
• Theives who can open locks despite the worst of conditions
• Men so charismatic they lead whole continents to war
• Rangers who can follow tracks with an almost supernatural cunning.

All of these save the first, IMO, can be the result of having 21st+ level ability; some are even imaginable or historical fact here on Earth.

For supernatural Epic skills, why not simply have new skills that cannot be bought until Epic Level, that are all semi-magical? I.e., instead of Balance having any DC higher than 40 or so, a new skill called "Epic Balance" could be used.

Good list! These are things that are bordering on impossibility for ordinary humans, but they do not go so far as to require a supernatural explanation - they can be construed as amazing, almost unbelievable, competence on the part of characters.

Walking on clouds, on the other hand, is just so far out there that I simply cannot suspend my disbelief without a supernatural explanation for it. Same goes for direct reading of thoughts on a high sense motive check.

I do not think that in order to be epic, you have to break all the rules of physics, etc. and not even justify it with a supernatural explanation. That is not what defines an epic game in my eyes. For me, an epic game implies that the heroes are still mortal and while high above their ordinary brehten they still cannot break the limits of physics without supernatural aid. These still human heroes struggle against the odds to accomplish great deeds that will inspire generations of people after them to follow their example. That is what epic means to me.

Now, don't get me wrong, I would expect immortal and divine games to be different. Divinite is in its very nature supernatural, so the above limitations do not apply.

Of course, everyone will has their own idea of what epic means and the above is merely my take on the matter.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi historian mate!

Man Krust, that was downright inspirational (applause)!

Appreciate the love dude!