Imp Crit + Keen = ???

[RandomPrecision]

I never really understood what he was trying to do, prove keen & imp crit together are fine, holy is too good at +2, or rapiers should compare favourably with greatswords?

Rapiers are infamous for their high critical threat range. It's proving that Imp. Crit. and Keen on a rapier (the highest critical threat range possible without adding prestige classes or other bonuses to the mix) isn't broken, as some would have us believe. If you want to deal excessive amounts of damage, Imp. Crit. and Keen on a rapier isn't the way to go, even if they stack.

 

[genshou]

It's recently come to my attention that I work in financial simulation... perhaps I can simulate some D&D battles and see how both the baseline and some tweaks actually work out (on average).

This will take some time, but a general simulation framework could be of value to tweakers everywhere.

Anyone already done such a beast?

-- N

I did this with d20 Future starships as soon as I got ahold of the rulebook, testing various weapons and options, such as fire-linked, batteries (stupid d20 Future rules), batteries (Star Wars d20 rules, which don't nerf the other 4 weapons in the battery like d20 Future does)... I found that the ONLY time it's smart to fire-link weapons is when they do so little damage they can't overcome a ship's hardness... or if you don't have enough gunners to man the weapons (such as when you are in a one-man ship, eg starfighter). And the d20 Future rules make weapon batteries USELESS, whereas a skilled crew using the Star Wars rules can unleash devastation on a low-Defense starship when using a 5-weapon battery, and they're also more likely to hit with a single shot against high-defense ships.

I had to do all my calculation by hand, so if you can do it with a simulation framework, please work on it! I'll provide any support I can ^_^

 

[Nifft]

I had to do all my calculation by hand, so if you can do it with a simulation framework, please work on it! I'll provide any support I can ^_^

Well, there are some Aristocrats I'd like assassinated...

-- N

 

[Storm Raven]

I never really understood what he was trying to do, prove keen & imp crit together are fine, holy is too good at +2, or rapiers should compare favourably with greatswords?

He was comparing the benefits of the keen enhancement, when used with Improved Critical, to a comparative baseline to determine if the combination provided a problematic (i.e. too powerful) result. You could do the same with a flaming greatsword vs. a keen rapier, or other combinations. The upshot is that allowing keen to stack with Improved Critical doesn't cause any balance problems.

 

[Storm Raven]

As an aside, I recall the last time the characters hit 8th & 9th level all the fighting types took improved critical with one exception. There was a certain '3.0 haste-likeness' to it all, now I'm not saying it is anywhere near as bad, but there was a certain must have about it. Otoh, not stacking + keen being so cheap does make imp crit pretty weak for a +8BAB pre-req, & a weak feat is as bad as one too strong...

In my experience, people took the Improved Ciritical feat and got keen weapons was because critical hits are fun! Not because they are somehow mechanically more powerful.

 

[genshou]

Well, there are some Aristocrats I'd like assassinated...

-- N

I'll see what I can do...

 

[ZuulMoG]

No one will think it's unbroken until someone gets Devastating Critical (rapier) and is slaughtering people on a confirmed 12+.

Um, a rapier does d6+Str. If it's +5 and the warrior's Str is 24, that's a (d6+12) x2, max 36, avg 31. A +5 weapon and 20 Str are the province of high-level PCs. A high-level PC ought to be able to rely on dealing 20-30 pts of damage per whack, because the giants he's fighting at that level have over 100hp. If you're whining because orcs don't stand a chance against him, well, I have a hard time seeing a high level PC going through a horde or orcs like a wet wind as a bad thing.

He's SUPPOSED to.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

In my experience, people took the Improved Ciritical feat and got keen weapons was because critical hits are fun! Not because they are somehow mechanically more powerful.

WotCs response & the stated reason for bringing out the nerf stick, was that 12+ criticals were no longer special. I think the implication there was that 'too often' = 'not special' = 'not fun.'

I doubt many people believe that imp crit + keen is too powerful, WotC included, but that the game became less fun.

Myself? I never noticed this but then noone twinked a high crit build. Otoh I suffered a stratospherically high super-DC enchanter & WotC fixed this with the revision, so my inclination is to take WotC at their word & implement the 3.5 ruleset in its entirety.

 

[S'mon]

Actually, neither is better. I think they balance out statistically, if I'm not mistaken.

They only balance out vs an infinite hit points opponent. Vs a typical oppent the 20/x3 weapon is far more likely to waste lots of hp damage on overkill.

 

[Bagpuss]

SKRs analysis is ridiculous, he compares a keen rapier to a holy greatsword when he wholey knows that given the alignment spread of monsters, holy is too good. Afaic the presentation of greatsword vs rapier + holy vs keen = a strawman's argument.

Which is why if you followed the link he has also demonstrated it mathimatically with a keen longsword verse a keen rapier.