Implement/Shaman questions

[brehobit]

Looking at playing a shaman and a bunch of questions came up

1. Does a totem require it be held in hand to use? If so where does it say that? If if so, what's up with the long spear prof? Seems odd...
2. How does the spirit companion (hereafter SC) move? Can it move over pits? Water? Can it fly? Can it climb?
3. If I'm reading the rules right an ally can share a space with the SC. Does he get the bonuses (whatever they may be) for being "adjacent" to the SC?
4. An enemy can't move through a SC's space, but can the SC move through an enemy's space? Can the SC stop there?

And implement questions:

1. If you are a wizard, and (say) take a cleric multi-class, can you use your holy symbol for your wizard spells? Your staff for your cleric spells?
2. Assuming the answer to the above is no, I assume you can use (say) a rod for both sets of class powers if it is an implement of both classes yes?
3. If you have a Paragon Path that uses an "implement" but it doesn't specify which implement how does that work?

Thanks!

 

[fba827]

[*] Does a totem require it be held in hand to use? If so where does it say that? If if so, what's up with the long spear prof? Seems odd...

the part on 'holy symbol' (see PHB, the section where it talks about magic items) says 'unlike all the implements a holy symbol doesn't take a hold slot (or some other wording like that)' also, each of the descriptions with the other implements (such as rods, staves, etc) talks about how it takes a hand to wield. however, it does not have that specific reference in the totem description of magic items, but it doesn't say that it doesn't either. given the reference in the holy symbol section about how by default implements do need a hand to wield, i'd say totems need to as well.

yes, the longspear thing is odd (for several reasons) but i think it's initial intent was for those who want to stand behind a SC and attack from melee 2. There are some magic longspears that count as totems specifically for this reason. can't name any off the top of my head but i'm positive i've seen it in either the magic weapon section or the totem section.

[*] How does the spirit companion (hereafter SC) move? Can it move over pits? Water? Can it fly? Can it climb?

I've seen page after page of discussion on this including various vague customer service responses. i'd tell you my opinion but no matter what i said here, you'll have people arguing every other answer for the next 20 pages.. so i'll simply say to come to your own judgment on that (there is talk of it hovering but not flying, of it flying, of it not hovering and not flying, etc - to name just a few of the variety of answers).

but specifically on climb, there is no hint (anywhere) that it gains a climb speed so i'd say that part is a definite no. it does have a move speed. my opinions on the other parts would just be my own interpretations...

but keep in mind that you do need line of sight (or is it line of effect?) no matter where it goes. and with the minor action call and range 20 you could really just pop it around the battlefield faster than it can move (so pop it to the other side of the pit if you have the actions to spare without worrying about fly/hover/etc) - but, sure, it will come up.. so just come up with an answer that works for your group (or sift through 30 pages on Enworld and WotC boards on the topic).

[*] If I'm reading the rules right an ally can share a space with the SC. Does he get the bonuses (whatever they may be) for being "adjacent" to the SC?

While the general conjuration rule says that conjurations do not occupy a space, the SC power says that it does. Hence, no one can occupy a space with it.
However, allies can cross through it (and it can cross through allies) over the course of moving, but it can not end in the same space.

[*] An enemy can't move through a SC's space, but can the SC move through an enemy's space? Can the SC stop there?

It can not move through enemy spaces because it occupies a space and allies can move through each others' spaces, but ally-enemy can not. And if it can't move through it, the question as to whether or not it can stop there is negated.

[*] If you are a wizard, and (say) take a cleric multi-class, can you use your holy symbol for your wizard spells? Your staff for your cleric spells?

no - wizard powers can only be modified by wizard implements, cleric powers by holy symbols. etc. there is some random magic item (i believe it's a staff) that counts as both a wizard implement and a holy symbol for some god of magic.

[*] Assuming the answer to the above is no, I assume you can use (say) a rod for both sets of class powers if it is an implement of both classes yes?

yes. if you are both a wizard and a bard mutliclass and get a wand (which is an implement for both classes) the one wand can be used for either the wizard or bard powers.

[*] If you have a Paragon Class that uses an "implement" but it doesn't specify which implement how does that work?

i feel like this was clarified in either PHB2 or Forgotten Realms Players Guide (because there was a spellscared paragon path that didn't have a class requirement therefore the question came up).. bottom line was something like if it doesn't specify than any implement you are proficient with will work.

though, i'd probably do an "is it reasonable" house rule ...somethings just might not make much sense (are you really going to channel some arcane frost spell through a holy symbol of pelor (god of sun) etc).


disclaimer: i'm no expert. just giving a set of quick and dirty answers.

 

[1of3]

If you have a Paragon Path that uses an "implement" but it doesn't specify which implement how does that work?

The paragraph about implements in class section are like:

A cleric wearing or holding a holy symbol can add its enhancement bonus to to the attack rolls and damage rolls of cleric powers, as well as cleric paragon path powers...


For paths that do not have a class in their prerequisites it's probably "anything goes".

 

[NMcCoy]

The other thing to note is that in recent books WotC's been relaxing constraints on implements. The Swordmage multiclass feat, for instance, just says "you can wield swordmage implements". This lets you use a heavy blade for any implement power.

 

[CapnZapp]

Looking at playing a shaman and a bunch of questions came up

1. Does a totem require it be held in hand to use? If so where does it say that? If if so, what's up with the long spear prof? Seems odd...
2. How does the spirit companion (hereafter SC) move? Can it move over pits? Water? Can it fly? Can it climb?
3. If I'm reading the rules right an ally can share a space with the SC. Does he get the bonuses (whatever they may be) for being "adjacent" to the SC?
4. An enemy can't move through a SC's space, but can the SC move through an enemy's space? Can the SC stop there?

1. All implements (except Holy Symbols) require you to wield them, and all implements (including Holy Symbols) are one handed.

I can't answer why Shamans got longspears specifically. Perhaps it fits with WotC's vision of how Shamans look? Most Shamans won't use any though, because their hands are better used to wield implements.

This doesn't mean the proficiency is in error though, just seldom used. The main uses are multiclassed characters and characters who have found a longspear with an enchantment that allows them to use the spear as an implement.

2. This is simply not defined by the rules. The only thing that is clearly stated is how it doesn't need a supporting surface, from which follows you can summon it in a square where there is a pit or drop.

Strictly speaking, it does not get a fly or climb speed and cannot use any skills. If your DM goes this way, you will have to de- and re-summon your SC each time you want to move it through the air.

Other DMs allow their Shamans to use their SCs to fly, if not by giving them a fly speed outright, at least in practical play.

I suspect the intention was that it should ignore pits (as well as any other terrain feature) but otherwise keep to the 2D plane: the rules generally try to ignore or downplay 3D movement as much as possible, and it is possible this was what the class designer had in mind.

3) No, the SC occupies a square, and thus can't share with an ally. But should some exception occur, the answer would still be no - read the definition of "adjacent" (PHB273 - hint: you need two squares for them to be able to be adjacent)

4) Conjurations can't be moved through "solid obstacles". What this means is left up to your DM. Some DMs will force you to dismiss and re-summon a SC trapped behind enemy troops. Other will allow it to move past/through the enemies just fine. (Remember conjurations doesn't trigger OAs).

What is clear is that the option to somersault over an opponent (using Acrobatics) isn't there for conjurations.

The SC can't stop in an enemy's (or ally's, or your own) square - it occupies its own square.

Also see http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/252604-shamans-spirit-companion-questions.html

 

[jbear]

I'm interested to know if someone can find aome evidence to backup the claim that only wizard's implements can be used for wizards spells etc despite multiclassing. I haven't read anything to that effect.

This would make being a multi-class bard very annoying indeed swapping between your implements to use your multi-class attack powers. As I understand it the Implement key word means the power receives a bunus from appropriate feats that refer to implements and the implements item bonus. If you know how to use wands and holy symbols, you can channel your magic, whether it be divine or arcane through either.

Correct me if I'm wrong. And if I am, I think the Bard just suddenly got very unattractive.

 

[1of3]

You can deduce so much from the class sections. Also, if you have a look at hybrid characters, it explicitely says that they can exchange the implements of their hybrid classes for one another. Why say so, if you could do it all along?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I'm interested to know if someone can find aome evidence to backup the claim that only wizard's implements can be used for wizards spells etc despite multiclassing. I haven't read anything to that effect.

This would make being a multi-class bard very annoying indeed swapping between your implements to use your multi-class attack powers. As I understand it the Implement key word means the power receives a bunus from appropriate feats that refer to implements and the implements item bonus. If you know how to use wands and holy symbols, you can channel your magic, whether it be divine or arcane through either.

Correct me if I'm wrong. And if I am, I think the Bard just suddenly got very unattractive.

The limitation isn't a limitation to implements, its a limitation in the implement use class features of all classes. For example

A warlock wielding a magic rod or wand can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of warlock powers, as well as warlock paragon path powers, that have the implement keyword.

This is the rule, specific to warlocks in this case, that allows implements to work for warlocks at all. It obviously does not give them the ability to use a holy symbol for their powers. There are feats which will allow the use of other implements (Arcane Implement Proficiency for example). All other implement using classes have (and require) some similar wording. Of course a class could in theory exist which can use any implement with any power, but there isn't one and most likely never will be one.

So yes, your bard will need to be careful about what implements he can use and what powers he can combine with them. There are ways to gain significant flexibility like using a Songblade and taking AIP (heavy blade), which would allow the use of the blade with all types of arcane power source magic. There are a lot of crossover implements as well, like the wand which works with bard, wizard, and warlock spells. The staff works with wizard and invoker powers, etc. Bards have a huge potential to MC and combine things, but it doesn't come for free.

 

[Mahali]

This is the rule, specific to warlocks in this case, that allows implements to work for warlocks at all. It obviously does not give them the ability to use a holy symbol for their powers.

If you need everything in that black and white clarity you're going to be asking a lot of questions and using your own interpretations. This game isn't that clear and assumes a moderate ability to read english and think.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

If you need everything in that black and white clarity you're going to be asking a lot of questions and using your own interpretations. This game isn't that clear and assumes a moderate ability to read english and think.

Uhhhh, what? I just went to the book and quoted a particular rule that explains how implements work. If you don't want to play the game using the rules that's fine, but other people I suspect post to this forum to find answers to rules questions.

I'm sure we would all be happy to debate what we think the rules should be. Personally I don't have a problem with the implement rules as they are. Characters can either specialize in using the powers of their own class or they can expend a feat and learn to use powers and implements of other classes together. In SOME cases they can wield a single implement for powers of more than one class, which is nice, but really this isn't much different than the situation with weapons where rogue powers pretty much all work only with rogue weapons, etc.