Implements

[abyssaldeath]

Wizards know how to sell ice cream out of automobiles as well as buildings.
See, an ice cream truck is an automobile, and so is a porsche.
A vicious quarterstaff and a staff of power are both staves.
But only 1 is designed to sell ice cream.

Now, a frost quarterstaff is specifically enchanted to be a weapon, not an implement ...
So some of the folks here have been saying that since the frost quarterstaff doesn't have the necessary arcane markings or what not (i.e. the implement keyword), I can't get the enhancement bonus on spells.

What arcane markings? I see no reference to this at all. I think people are assuming something that is not writen. As for criticals, under the critical section of magic items it say that all magic weapons and impliments give this bonus to criticals. there is no difference between a quarterstaff and a staff impliment. They even cost the same. The only difference I see is in the magic item section.

 

[TheNovaLord]

Wizards know how to sell ice cream out of automobiles as well as buildings.
See, an ice cream truck is an automobile, and so is a porsche.
A vicious quarterstaff and a staff of power are both staves.
But only 1 is designed to sell ice cream.

.

Not letting it stack makes it too 'vanilla' for my tastes!!

 

[Danceofmasks]

@abyssaldeath

That's been my point all along.
Rules discussions are supposed to expand understanding, not obfuscate it .. and I'm endlessly frustrated when people say, "this is how I would rule .." .. it does not help!

As an exception based game, the rules are meant to be sufficiently clear as to never require interpretation.
Fail!
I intend to run as well as play games at cons, and when players take actions, there has to be one and only one correct expectation of how the universe functions.
That's the purpose of rulings threads, and people asking for rules references, it's so we can all have a common reference point with which to play the game.

If a character is brought to a con that's invested in a combo and legal by RAW and FAQ, no DM has a right to say "that doesn't work."

There is no rule zero in 4th edition.

 

[Samurai]

Ah, but every enchanted implement also adds damage on critical hits ... so then does a +2 vicious quarterstaff add 2d12 on magic missile criticals?

I consider the bonus on criticals to be an inherent part of the Enhancement bonus, since the number of bonus damage dice is directly determined by the Enhancement, so yes.

 

[theNater]

Here's what I get when I read the rules.

General: A weapon provides enhancement bonuses to attack and damage when it is used in conjunction with a power that has the weapon keyword.

General: An implement provides enhancement bonuses to attack and damage when it is used in conjunction with a power that has the implement keyword and can be used with that kind of implement.

General: Weapons and implements are different objects.

Specific: A staff implement can be used as a weapon. If it is, treat it as a magical quarterstaff with the same enhancement bonus.

Unless there is a specific rule that a quarterstaff(or other staff category weapon) can be used as a staff implement, then it cannot.

 

[toxicspirit]

And here's my take ...

Every magical Staff is considered to be a weapon, and can be usable as such to full effect if the user is capable of doing so.

Every magical Staff is considered to be an implement, and can be usable as such to full effect if the user is capable of doing so.

I see nothing in the rules that contradicts this.

 

[Samurai]

Here's what I get when I read the rules.

General: A weapon provides enhancement bonuses to attack and damage when it is used in conjunction with a power that has the weapon keyword.

General: An implement provides enhancement bonuses to attack and damage when it is used in conjunction with a power that has the implement keyword and can be used with that kind of implement.

General: Weapons and implements are different objects.

Specific: A staff implement can be used as a weapon. If it is, treat it as a magical quarterstaff with the same enhancement bonus.

Unless there is a specific rule that a quarterstaff(or other staff category weapon) can be used as a staff implement, then it cannot.

I don't think it's ever specified that a Staff Implement is in any substancial way different from a quarterstaff. They have identical stats, cost the same, etc. Apparently any wooden staff, costing 5 gp and weighing 4 lbs can be used as a staff implement, and can also be used as a quarterstaff. I therefor see no reason why an ordinary staff needs any distinction as to which type it is, beyond the purely cosmetic.

When we get to magical staffs, going by your statement above, a Staff of Fiery Might +2 can be used by a Fighter to get +2 attack and damage, and +2d8 on a critical hit, but a basic +2 enchanted Quarterstaff couldn't be used by a Wizard as an Implement (even though there is once again a completely identical item, a +2 staff, that costs the same, does the same damage, etc).

You may be right, I don't know... why else would they separate the 2 items and repeat themselves? But for my game, I think it just makes more logical sense to say that a staff is a staff, and all staves are both an Implement and a weapon. However, if it has a Daily Power or certain special properties, they may be limited to melee attacks or spells, as the case may be.

 

[WyzardWhately]

Okay. Let's say we have two vanilla (no special abilities) +x quarterstaffs. One is an "implement," from the Staves chart. One is a "weapon," from the weapons chart. The question, as formulated here, is the following: Are they interchangeable? That is, are these items functionally identical for all purposes?

We have already established that the "implement" staff can do everything the "weapon" staff can do. I submit that if the converse is not true, then the "implement" staff needs to be more expensive. This is a sort of bass-ackwards way of getting there, but it's the best I can come up with, since the text doesn't seem to have an explicit yea or nay.

 

[Saeviomagy]

One question to ask is:

how does allowing this affect game balance?

Is there some weapon enchantment that would totally wreak havoc if it were allowed to apply to wizard spells?

I doubt it.

 

[abyssaldeath]

One question to ask is:

how does allowing this affect game balance?

Is there some weapon enchantment that would totally wreak havoc if it were allowed to apply to wizard spells?

I doubt it.

I think the balance is that a fighter can not use the powers of a magic staff and a wizard cannot use the powers of a magic quarterstaff with the use of his powers, but could if he made a basic attack with it.

All the magic weapons say when damage is dealt with this weapon or it say when you hit with this weapon. Since wizards, when casting spells, never attack with the weapon they would not be able to use those powers.

The use of the powers are specific enough to know how you can use those powers.