Impossible to keep prisoners tied up?

[Drawmack]

You seem to "interpret" lots of things, like the need for a divine focus where none exists,

We all ''interpret'' three books worth of rules, otherwise we couldn't use them. That is because you interpret spell-like abilities differently then I do. I have already state, and quoted from the SRD this:

From the SRD:
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are spells and magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Spell-like abilities have a default action type of Standard Action. Spell-like abilities must have defined caster levels, and require Concentration checks as if they were spells.

Then I went on to explain that to me this means that a spell-like ability must be cast in a spell-like manor. You're refutation of that was ''I'm not sure your 100% correct on that'' but you have yet to point to the rules that state I am wrong? However, I will abandon the current argument for a new tact that you does not leave itself open to us having different interpretations of rules.

According to these rules spell-like abilities must have defined caster levels, yet there is no caster level defined for wildshape in the new and improved rules for them and require concentration checks as if they were spells. Okay the new and imoproved whileshape rules do not have a defined caster level so I will give them the caster level of the highest spell able to be cast when a druid achieves this ability which is 3. Okay so now I've made the rules compliant with the rules so we can use them.

Now lets take a look at what the rules have to say about concentration checks shall we.

From the SRD:
Concentration

To cast a spell, the character must concentrate. If something interrupts the character's concentration while the character is casting, the character must make a Concentration check or lose the spell. The more distracting the interruption and the higher the level of the spell the character is trying to cast, the higher the DC is. If the character fails the check, the character loses the spell just as if the character had cast it to no effect.

Interesting looks, like it's leaving the check DC up to the DM, lets check the skill and make sure shall we.

from the SRD:
Concentration (CON)
Check: The character can use this skill to maintain concentration in the face of other distractions.
The table below summarizes various types of distractions that cause the character to make a Concentration check while casting a spell. "Spell level" refers to the level of the spell the character is trying to cast.
DC Distraction
-- -----------
10 + damage dealt Injury or failed saving throw during the
+ spell level casting of a spell (for spells with a casting time of 1
full round or more) or injury by an attack of opportunity
or readied attack made in response to the spell being
cast (for spells with a casting time of 1 action).
^snip for berevity^
20 + spell level Grappling or pinned. (Can only cast spells without
somatic components and whose material component is
in hand.)
^snip for berevity^

Special: A character with the Combat Casting feat gets a +4 bonus to Concentration checks made to cast a spell while on the defensive.
Retry: Yes, though a success doesn't cancel the effects of a previous failure.

Ahh there it is all laid out for us. Now lets see the character is tied up, all his friends are tied up, he's been captured so he's probably not 100% physically, he's being guarded.

So lets calculate the DC shall we. I would think that being tied up would equate to pinned so the DC is 20 + spell level. So the minimum DC is 23. However if the character is being activly guarded then it is only reasonable to assume that the guard notices the change begin and uses his readied action, that he would surly have, in order to wack the guy with let's say a club. So this envokes the DC of 10 + damage delt + spell level. Since the guy is already going from a base of 20 and has already counted spell level we'll say this only incures the damage delt in addition to the DC of 23 that is already there. A club does 1d6 of damage lets assume an average roll of 3, but since the guy is guarding a band of adventurers lets assume that he is above average strength, say 16. So the final DC is 29.

The druid must make a concentration check with a DC of 29 in order to wildshape. (unless you think the guard whoping him is unreasonable then it is a 23). The druid cannot take 20 because he only gets a limited number of wildshape chances per day.

This means that the wildshape is not automatic. Of course I'm expecting arguments on this bit of logic as well.

 

[AuraSeer]

If Wildshape acted like a spell with (D) on its duration line, it still wouldn't be dismissable from animal form. For most spells, dismissal involves speaking; for spells with no verbal component, the caster must make a gesture. No hands, no gesture, and the druid is still stuck.

Okay the new and imoproved whileshape rules do not have a defined caster level so I will give them the caster level of the highest spell able to be cast when a druid achieves this ability which is 3. Okay so now I've made the rules compliant with the rules so we can use them.

You appear to be confusing caster level with spell level.

Wildshape does have a caster level-- the level of the caster (duh). For a Drd5, the caster level of Wildshape is 5.

For effective "spell level" of an SLA, the rules don't appear to specify. You could rule that it's effectively 3, for the reason you give above; but I might rule that, since a SLA is easier to cast than any spell, it has effective spell level 0. In the absence of a specific rules cite, either ruling is equally valid.

On concentration... yeah, if pinned or distracted, the druid needs to make a Concentration check. So what? This is entirely unrelated to your assertions about divine focuses and whatnot.

 

[Hypersmurf]

We all ''interpret'' three books worth of rules, otherwise we couldn't use them. That is because you interpret spell-like abilities differently then I do. I have already state, and quoted from the SRD this:

Ah, but there's more to the three books' worth of rules than just the SRD, isn't there?

AuraSeer already pointed out that SLAs need no components. The reference is Monster Manual, p7 :

Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (although they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components).

-Hyp.

 

[Drawmack]

If Wildshape acted like a spell with (D) on its duration line, it still wouldn't be dismissable from animal form. For most spells, dismissal involves speaking; for spells with no verbal component, the caster must make a gesture. No hands, no gesture, and the druid is still stuck.

And the next time you nod your head in response to a question the person should get upset because you did not gesture to them. The next time my cat wags its tail I won't take that as a gesture of playfulness. You do not need hands to gesture, any physical movement can be counted as a gesture.

On concentration... yeah, if pinned or distracted, the druid needs to make a Concentration check. So what? This is entirely unrelated to your assertions about divine focuses and whatnot. [/B]

I might be mistaken but I did state that I was going to change my argument basis did I not? Let me check, yup I did:

However, I will abandon the current argument for a new tact that you does not leave itself open to us having different interpretations of rules.

I was wrong about the focus and I admit that, the point still stands that a druid cannot automatically wildshape when tied up.

Hypersmurf, thank you for finally quoting the rule and giving the reference page. Also I only quote from the SRD because I do not have access to my books where I post from. Also though after a bit of digging that rule does appear in the SRD.

 

[Felix]

I'm curious about how a guard who, while he might have an above average STR, certainly doesn't have ranks in Spellcraft can tell that a Druid is trying to wildshape. Wildshaping doesn't have:
verbal components: druid can stay silent
somatic components: druid can stay still
material components: druid doesn't need to get anything from his bag
divine focus: druid doens't need his holly
XP cost: druid doesn't wince at his essence being drained from him.

So you have a silent, motionless, tied up prisoner laying on the ground with his eyes closed. "Hit him on the head! Isn't it obvious that he's a druid who is trying to shapeshift???"

I just don't see it.

Drawmack, yes, the druid has to make concentration checks while tied up. No, he cannot take 20. These things you got right.

But, I thought your posts a touch sarcastic and condecending. Your "Divine Focus in hand" argument was, admittedly, erronious. Your average prison guard has max ranks in spellcraft. It is not your arguments that people are upset with. It's how you present them that people are upset with. This is why I can see your arguments be ineffective.

But your logic is just fine: Druid has to make a concentration check.

If I were going to imprison a druid, I'd first cut out his tongue, and then take the advice of those french vampires in "Interview" and place him up side down in a coffin, bricked in afterwards. That might work.

 

[Coredump]

(in a futile attmept to get back on topic)

While I have not tracked down the original snippet in the SRD, it seems to rely on a 'standard' situation. It is pretty obvious that using one piece of rope to tie your hands in front of you, is significantly different than using many feet of rope to tightly secure your hands behind you, or to hog-tie you, or to overlap your arms so they are hands to elbows behind you..... So to give all of these a DC of 23 is pretty erroneous. If they can do a 'better than average' job of tieing them up, they should get a 'better than average' DC


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