Impossible to keep prisoners tied up?

[Shard O'Glase]

Uhm, ... guys...?

What makes you think you can take 20 on a strength check? I double-checked the SRD, and it seems fairly clear that "take 20" is only for skill checks. Sure, they use the same mechanism, but it is a different beast!

I would probably allow taking 20 on an Escape Artist check, but then again, the Use Rope check tying up the prisoners should have been done with take 20 as well. After all, how good a job are you going to do if you only take 6 seconds to tie someone up? 2 minutes seems a lot more likely.

Even if you odn't allow it for ability checks they can just keep trying, eventually they will roll a 20.

 

[Endur]

I wouldn't allow aid another to burst the ropes or chains. Assuming that the prisoners are not adjacent to one another and able to help each other.

Ropes are pretty flimsy, and shouldn't be relied on to keep a strong prisoner in check. For Conan the Barbarian, you definitely want to use chains. DC 26 means that Conan needs a str 22 to burst the chains. Definitely doable, but not every barbarian has a str 22 (without magic, and rage wouldn't count because of the limited duration of rage).

Masterwork chains should have another +2 to the DC to being burst. And there are the manacles another poster mentioned.

But, yes, I wouldn't change the DCs. These DCs are pretty high as is. Remember, Heroes are meant to escape.


Tom

[But the SRD lists a DC of only 23 for a Strength check to "Burst Rope Bonds". This means that anyone with a 16 strength (or anyone with a 12 strength and a friend) is pretty much immune to being tied up. They can just take 20 and snap the ropes, no matter how well secured.

Even chains can be burst with a 26 check (take 20 + STR 18 + a friend). So in D&D land, what are you supposed to do to keep people bound? [/B]

 

[starwolf]

As someone pointed out earlier....taking 20 is only valid on Skill Checks....not Stat Checks, just as you can't take 20 on Save's

"Save vs. Death? Gimme a couple a minutes...."

 

[Number47]

Players Handbook, Page 62

Ability Checks and Caster Level Checks: The normal take 10 rules apply for ability checks that are routine untrained skills checks (such as jumpling but not disguising yourself) or when there is no skill associated with the check (such as breaking down a door). The normal take 20 rules apply to all ability checks. Neither rule applies to caster level checks (as when casting a dispel magic.)

 

[Drawmack]

Also, note that your proposed rule would make wildshape a one-way trip. In order to use a material or focus component, a caster needs hands to manipulate that component. Animals don't have hands, so the druid would end up getting stuck. [/B]

That depends. When they change back to normal form are they casting the spell a second time or recalling the original spell. I would say they are recalling the original spell which does not require the components.

 

[mmu1]

That depends. When they change back to normal form are they casting the spell a second time or recalling the original spell. I would say they are recalling the original spell which does not require the components.

That's called "***making stuff up***", and I'm fairly sure is not a part of the Core Rules.

You realize this is the "The way rules really are, as written in the core books and/or official errata" forum, as opposed to the "The way the rules should be because I need them that way to win an argument" forum, right?

mmu1 - let's not have talk of pulling things from one another's nether-regions, please? I hate to edit, but this one was specifically referred to by another poster, and I prefer to keep discussions civil. - Henry

 

[Kyramus]

From what I understand about taking 10 or 20 and the posted situation.

IF the players were teid up and guarded, THEY CANNOT take 20 because there is someone there guaranteed to KNOCK them out for even trying.

IF the players were tied up and LEFT ALONE, then they can take 20 and hope they can jump the guy that comes back.

I forget where I read something to the effect that you CANNOT take 20 on any skill or check that gives an immediate effect afterwards.

IE Disable Device, you can't take 20 because you can conceivably trigger a trap if you fail.

In the posted scenario, taking a 20 would have given the immediate effect of SOMEONE knocking the pc out.

Just my opinion.

 

[Drawmack]

That's called "***making stuff up***", and I'm fairly sure is not a part of the Core Rules.

You realize this is the "The way rules really are, as written in the core books and/or official errata" forum, as opposed to the "The way the rules should be because I need them that way to win an argument" forum, right? [/B]

Umm, from the SRD..
(D): If the Duration line ends with "(D)," the character can dismiss the spell at will. The character must be within range of the spell's effect and must speak words of dismissal, which are usually a modified form of the spell's verbal component. If the spell has no verbal component, the character dismisses the spell with a gesture. Dismissing a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A spell that depends on concentration is dismissible by its very nature, and dismissing it does not require an action (since all the character has to do to end the spell is to stop concentrating).

I interpret the fact that the druid can change back at will as the ability being able to be dismissed. You realize that you should consult the rules before accusing others of ''***making stuff up***''

 

[0-hr]

As someone pointed out earlier....taking 20 is only valid on Skill Checks....not Stat Checks, just as you can't take 20 on Save's

And as somone else pointed out earlier....the player could just roll the die 20 times instead so what is your point?

The Take 20 rules are just a convenience so that people do not have to actually sit there and roll the die over and over and over until they succeed. On ANY check where they could just try again ad infinitum, you may as well just say "Ok, eventually you will roll a 20 so let's skip ahead to then." The Take 20 rule just says to assume that it takes you 20 rolls to get that natural 20, and then get on with the game. It's not that complicated.

Note that on a saving throw, you do not get to roll over and over and over again until you make it. Therefore, you cannot take 20. If you fail a strength check to break a rope, however, you are free to try again every round until you succeed. Therefore, you may as well just "take 20" and save some die rolling.

 

[mmu1]

I interpret the fact that the druid can change back at will as the ability being able to be dismissed. You realize that you should consult the rules before accusing others of ''***making stuff up***''

You seem to "interpret" lots of things, like the need for a divine focus where none exists, and your argument about the ability being dismissed (actually, the previous post referred to "recalling" a spell, whathever that's supposed to be) is contingent on that assumption. Both are wrong.