Improved Rapid Shot feat

You just agreed that there are lots of things archers can't do that melee characters can, then said they don't have disadvantages?

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that they do have disadvantages, but no more so than the melee fighters. Their disadvantages are just of a different nature.
 

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As I said...

LordAO said:
Not very many serious drawbacks? Do you really want to stick by that statement?

Archers have several drawbacks compared to melee, and I will go over some of them for you.

First, Archers provoke an attack of opportunity for attacking, something melee characters don't need to worry about.

Second, Archers have limited ammunition. Even if you have a thousand arrows, you are still at a disadvantage to the melee character who has no such limit. And when you are fond of Rapid Shot (as most arhcers are), you go throguh ammunition all the quicker.

Third, Archers can't make attacks of opportunity, nor can they flank. This is a huge, huge disadvantage, especially considering the emphasis they place on Dexterity and what combat refelxes could do for them. Yeah, you people always bring up Rapid Shot as an example of how "archery is better than melee," but you often negelect to take into account what even a single attack of opportunity or flanking can add to a battle, especially for rogues.

Fourth, Archers have a limit on the damage they can deal because of the limits on strength adding to bows. Regular bows don't get the benefit of strength at all, and even a mighty composite bow can only add up to +4. And even if an archer wanted to have good damage and used a comp bow, that still means he has two attributes to worry about - Dex and Str. Melee characters, on the other hand, get the benfit of attack AND damage from a single attaribute.

On that same note, melee characters can really do well without a high dex at all. They can simply pump up their strength and con, tank in plate mail, and be juggernauts. Archers, on the other hand, usually stick to lighter armor since they emphasize Dexterity so much.

Fifth, Melee characters have alot more combat options. Things such as knockdown, sunder, grappling, cleave, etc are often overlooked but can be a huge advantage to a melee character who uses them properly.

Sixth, there aren't anywhere near as many feats for archery as there are for melee. This isn't as big a deal for most characters (who only get 7-10 feats anyway), but it is a big deal for fighters. And more options is never a bad thing. Yes, Rapid Shot is nice, but don't forget about the awesome feats avaiable to melee (Cleave, Great Cleave, Whirlwind Attack, etc).

Seventh, archers need two hands to use a bow. This isn't as big of a drawback as some of the others, but it does take away a significant option available to melee characters - shields.

Eighth, archers have some disadvantages compared to melee, particularly with environmental and circumstantail penalties. Some of these can be overcome with feats such as Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot, but consider that the melee character didn't have to spend feats because he didn't have those drawbacks to begin with.

Now, in fairness, I will point out that archer has some incredible advantages as well (such as having more flexibility in positioning himself and being able to full attack without having to spend time getting to his opponents). But please, people, don't act like archers have it all easy and don't get anything but advanatages over melee! To say they have no serious disadvantages is blatantly false.

As I said, no serious disadvantages.

1) Archers provoke an AOO. True. That's why they 5'step and full attack a lot, or more typically don't get within melee with the bad guys. This is a slight disadvantage.

2) Ammo? Are you serious? Who the heck cares? Pile up 1,000 arrows in your bag-o-much-stuff, or your quiver-o-mighty-capacity, etc. A non issue in D&D which is very high magic by default.

3) No AOO, No flanking. This is more of an annoyance than a disadvantage. The archer does not want to be flanking, does not want to be taking AOO's. The archer wants to be 25' away from the enemy. Is it a disadvantage that wizards can't cast spells during an AOO? Sure. Do they care? Naw. They don't want to be in a position to TAKE AOOs.

4) Mighty Bows are not limited in 3.5.

5) Yes they do. That's a slight disadvantage to archers, after all, most of these options are not used often.

6) Feats? You don't need that many archery feats to be good at archery. That's a disadvantage?

7) Two hands used up -- same as the typical greatsword fighter. Eh. Even.

8) Cover penalties; yeah, melee guys have them too on occasion. Slight annoyance, most of the time.

I still maintain these are not "serious" disadvantages. They are disadvantages, but not a big deal. Honestly, I don't WANT to flank with a bow if I'm an archer, even if I could. I don't want to be that close. Is that really a disadvantage? Ditto AOO's?

None of these compare in any way to the huge advantages of ranged combat, namely: that dragon is not doing a FULL ATTACK on your posterior. Or the Orc, or the Goblin, or the etc. That's a serious advantage, to the tune of 10, 20, 50, 100 hit points.
 
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James McMurray said:
You just agreed that there are lots of things archers can't do that melee characters can, then said they don't have disadvantages?
I said no serious disadvantages.
Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that they do have disadvantages, but no more so than the melee fighters.
I would say archers have fewer disadvantages than melee fighters.
Their disadvantages are just of a different nature.
That too.
 

I would say that from the party's point of view a fighter taking damage on the frontline is half of his value. Archers are fighters that don't front up monsters and so leave them free to tear up the lone melee fighter (if after covering the basic divine, rogue and arcane roles the party even has one!) or wander over to whatever character they desire. Maybe from the archer's pov it's a benefit that he doesn't have to go toe to toe, but aren't those high hp's and ac going to waste? As much as offense gets minmaxed isn't melee defense as big a benefit of the fighter classes? There's saftey in numbers and spreading out the damage, and so for an archer to be worthwhile to a group he does need to do more damage than the average melee fighter.
 

two said:
I still maintain these are not "serious" disadvantages. They are disadvantages, but not a big deal. Honestly, I don't WANT to flank with a bow if I'm an archer, even if I could. I don't want to be that close. Is that really a disadvantage? Ditto AOO's?

None of these compare in any way to the huge advantages of ranged combat, namely: that dragon is not doing a FULL ATTACK on your posterior. Or the Orc, or the Goblin, or the etc. That's a serious advantage, to the tune of 10, 20, 50, 100 hit points.

I respect your insights, but there is little point in continuing to drag this thread further and further off topic. The point I was trying to make is that melee and archery both have advantages and drawbacks. These things are seldom more than a nuisance, but they count. In my opinion, the two fighting styles are quite well balanced overall. Yes, they nerfed archery in 3.5 with the no magical bow and arrow stacking rule (for starters). But (this may surprise you that Im saying this), they also nerfed melee. Having to have a golfbag of weapons is the last thing any melee character wants. When I play a melee fighter, I want to dedicate myself to a single weapon (or pair of weapons), not lug around a golfbag full of adamntine, cold iron, holy, unholy, flaming, shocking, frost, axiomatic, etc, etc, etc weapons! :mad:

IMHO, archery and melee were balanced in 3.0, and they are still balanced in 3.5. Just a little bit different ball game now - for everyone.

As far as the Improved Rapid Shot, I still don't really know. I've taken this as one of my feats for my Ranger character I'll be playing, so I'll get to find out first hand how balanced it is.

[EDIT] P.S. - Manyshot sucks! Just thought I'd add that.
 
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Improved Rapid Shot is yet another "Must" feat for an archer.

+2 to hit with all your arrows when doing a full attack. Can't beat that.

The limitation that all you are doing is "getting rid of a -2 penalty" means that I'm willing to accept it as a feat (less math involved in calculating to hit), but its definitely at the upper limit of how powerful a feat should be. Improved Precise Shot is also very powerful, as are Rapid Shot and Manyshot.

Its a pity that melee characters don't have feats that are quite this powerful.
 

Endur said:
Its a pity that melee characters don't have feats that are quite this powerful.

Sorry Dog, gotta call you out on that one. In terms of raw damage, no feat is more powerful than power attack. Just as one quick example: An unhasted Ftr16 with a total attack bonus of 34, wielding a flaming greatsword enchanted to +4, naturally or GMW, with a +20 to damage and improved critical, attacking an AC25 target (something he might want to trade full attacks with); optimal use of power attack will raise his average damage done on a charge from 34 to 64, and raise his average damage on the full attack from 127 to 148. This same fighter spring attacking a nastier opponent of ac 32 that he might not want to trade full attacks with has his damage raised from 34 to 43. Finally, even at level 16, a fighter sometimes has to deal with lower AC foes, be they summoned animals or hordes of lesser creatures. Against AC 15 foes, his charge damage goes from 34 to 71 (more than doubling), and his full attack goes from 136 to 235 (nearly 100 more damage in a round... without factoring in haste). Power attack is hoss, and totally worth it for any character that melees and has a respectable to-hit bonus.

In a related development... the single attack portion of my power attack spreadsheet has been diagnosed and repaired. It is attached.

It is hard for me to believe that in this same thread where people are saying things like this:
Spatula said:
Flanking is only really hugely useful to rogues, anyway. The +2 to hit is nice for other characters if you can get it without losing out on attacks, but not critical.

That some people can be arguing that IRS is overpowered. One might also say, "Improved Rapid Shot is only really hugely useful for archers, anyway. The +2 to hit is nice... but not critical."

Some "+2 to hit" is overpowered, but other "+2 to hit" is "nice, but not critical"?

Let me demonstrate: Unhasted Level 16 Ftr, archery spec'd, 16BA, +36 to hit, +15 to damage, improved crit, one elemental damage die... first, without IRS

Avg dmg on full attack vs AC 20: 128
vs AC 30: 108
vs AC 40: 57

Now for the IRS archer
vs AC 20: 128
vs AC 30: 114
vs AC 40: 68

The best results were against high AC opponents, but even then, spread across 5 attacks, there was only an increase of 11 damage.... that is barely more powerful than weapon specialization.

For me, that is case closed.
 

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Now that Complete Warrior has been out for a while, are we apt to see more Composite Mighty Greatbows (dam 1d10)?

One of the big things that keeps this melee/missile race even is that missle weapons don't do a lot of damage. What if that were to change?
 

Going from a d8 to a d10 won't change a lot. And it costs a feat. The biggest disadvantage of the archers towards the melee monsters is the 1* strength modifier to damage with composite bows instead of 1.5 * str mod or TWF stuff plus more additional attacks.

Now, 2d6 or 2d8 for a bow, that would change something. I already thought about houseruling Xbows to a little bit more damage.
 

Darklone is right. the one extra average damage is nowhere near the cost of a feat. It might be worth a feat if playing an archer cleric with righteous might. Then you get an extra 2 average damage. Even then there are (IMO) better options available.
 

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