Improved Unarmed combat questions

[AGGEMAM]

An Unarmed Attack is a melee attack. (PHB, page 282)

From Starwars, episode V, The Empire Strikes Back, Yoda to Luke

So certain are you?

 

[IceBear]

For as long as I remember playing D&D, there have always been, at the core, two types of attacks - melee or missle. All attacks come down to being either a melee or a missle attack (or spells, but we're talking about attacks here). Thus, an unarmed attack is either a melee attack or a missle attack. Since it's not a missle attack, it must be a melee attack.

IceBear

 

[Caliban]

So certain are you?

Hmm... Let me see:

It's an attack.

It's in melee range.

Yup, sounds like a melee attack to me.

Show me where it says it is not a melee attack.

 

[AGGEMAM]

Show me where it says it is not a melee attack.

PHB, page 123, under 'attack'. It listes 3 different kinds of attacks; melee, ranged, and unarmed, each as it's own category.

I'm not contesting that it is not an attack and furthermore within melee range, I'm saying it is not 'a melee attack'.

 

[Caliban]

PHB, page 123, under 'attack'. It listes 3 different kinds of attacks; melee, ranged, and unarmed, each as it's own category.

I'm not contesting that it is not an attack and furthermore within melee range, I'm saying it is not 'a melee attack'.

You might want to read what it says about "unarmed attacks" then.

Under Attack Actions, it has Melee Attacks, Ragned Attacks, and Unarmed Attacks.

If you go to the Unarmed Attacks subheading, it says they are covered on page 140.

If you go to page 140, and read the Unarmed Attack section, it says: "Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butss is like attacking with a weapon, except for the following: ..."

None of what follows on that pages indicates that you do not threaten an area, or that you are otherwise incapable of making an AoO.

An unarmed attack is exactly like any other melee attack, with the exceptions laid out on page 140. That is why it is listed seperately: It's a special kind of melee attack. However, it is still a melee attack.

 

[AGGEMAM]

None of what follows on that pages indicates that you do not threaten an area, or that you are otherwise incapable of making an AoO.

I snipped the parts you knew I knew.

Now why did the Sage say that you don't threaten an area if you are not armed?

And btw, the SRD is much more clear about this.

Anybody noticed, I conceded this part to dcollins long time ago?

 

[Caliban]

I snipped the parts you knew I knew.

Now why did the Sage say that you don't threaten an area if you are not armed?

Because the Sage thinks the PHB is wrong. (He said exactly that in the last e-mail I saw from him on this subject. The e-mail was posted on another message list, I'll put the text of it at the bottom of this post)

Basically the Sage acknowledged that the PHB doesn't have any rule preventing you from making an AoO with an Unarmed Attack, but he thinks it should be a rule.

As much respect as I have for him, his personal opinion cannot change the rules. If he convinces the rest of the Rules Council or WOTC R&D, and they publish errata on it, then the rules will be changed to match his opinion. Until then, the rules take precedence over his opinion. (Although any DM can of course alter the rules for his home game.)

Note - A gentleman named Kevin Elmore sent these questions to the Sage and posted his response on the Infinite Monkeys Yahoo group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Infinite_Monkeys/

My comments are in italics.

Question: I have run into some confusion about whether an
unarmed person (or indeed a person holding a bow or a
lantern) can make an attack of opportunity even if he does
not have the Improved Unarmed Attack feat.

Skip's answer: He can't.

Question: According to the PHB, you make an AoO against
someone who performs one of a list of given actions within
one of your threatened squares. A threatened square is a
square into which you can make a melee attack. From the
strictest interpretations, this leads me to believe that
someone who runs past an unarmed wizard does indeed provoke
an attack of opportunity.

Skip's answer: Yes, but the PH is incorrect--you have to
be armed to threaten an area.

Caliban: Unfortunately, Skip cannot rewrite the PHB on his own authority. The Core Rules trump Skip's opinion.

Question: Yet, I have received a lot of resistance from
other players. They claim that the person must have a melee
weapon in his hands in order to take advantage of an attack
of opportunity. So far, I have not seen any rule to support
this, but that is because I refuse to drag the game to a
screeching halt just to look up a rule.

Skip's answer: See the D&D FAQ (available off the D&D page
on the WotC web site).

Caliban: The D&D FAQ doesn't address this issue at all, other than a ruling that confirms that you don't threaten area when wielding a ranged weapon.

Question: Since I seem to be outnumbered in this
interpretation, I decided to come to you. If I am wrong,
could you show me where I have made my mistake? I've pored
over the PHB for quite some time now. I'd be quite happy to
admit my mistake if I can just see the reasoning.

Question: Furthermore, assuming I'm right (and if you show
me to be wrong, then ignore the rest of this message if you
like), what is the result of an unarmed attack of
opportunity against an armed opponent? For example, Bob the
Wizard is trying to stop the evil cultist from running past
him. The cultist has a wicked falchion, while Bob has hands
and feet. Bob makes his attack of opportunity (if my
reasoning is right). Does the cultist get an AoO himself
against Bob since he is armed?

Skip's answer: This is only one of many reasons why you
have to be armed to threaten an area.

Caliban: Unfortunately, Skip doesn't really answer the question. This is easily answered by the core rules: Yes, the cultis get's an AoO in return, if you don't have Improved Unarmed Strike.


Question: I really thought I read somewhere that you can
only make an AoO when it's not your turn.

Skip's answer: That is the definition of an Attack or
Opportunity.

Caliban: That is not the definition of an AoO. The definition of an AoO is on page 275 of the PHB, and doesn't mention anything about only being able to make an AoO when it's not your turn.

Question: But I can't find that in the rulebooks. From the
strictest of rules interpretations, it would seem to me
that an unarmed attack of opportunity can provoke an attack
of opportunity from the defender. This seems odd to me, but
it does highlight the importance of having a weapon.

Skip's answer: Indeed.

Caliban: Yes, it does. It would be better to do a Trip instead of an Unarmed Attack. Trip attacks do not require a weapon, and do not provoke an AoO. (If you use Skips ruling, a person wielding a dagger can trip someone on an AoO, but an unarmed man cannot.)

Question: Can you find any place in the book that
determines one way or the other whether an unarmed AoO
provokes an AoO itself (naturally, assuming no Improved
Unarmed Strike)? I'd really like to clear this up. I can
get around this in a home game with house rules, but I play
Living Greyhawk, which, as you've likely heard, uses the
strictest interpretations of the rules. And I'm not too
proud to know when I need to run to someone else for help
in picking apart rules.

Skip's answer: See the FAQ.

Caliban: The FAQ doesn't mention anything about this.

 

[AGGEMAM]

Basically I agree with you both.

In that there should be a rule and that there isn't.

I think Skip refers to the FAQ, because he would have liked it to be in FAQ, obviously it isn't, that can only be if there isn't concensus (is that spelled right) on Rules Council.

 

[AGGEMAM]

One thing though.

Caliban: (If you use Skips ruling, a person wielding a dagger can trip someone on an AoO, but an unarmed man cannot.)

That is incorrect Caliban, you can only trip unarmed or with a trip weapon. Wielding a dagger doesn't change that.

 

[Caliban]

One thing though.



That is incorrect Caliban, you can only trip unarmed or with a trip weapon. Wielding a dagger doesn't change that.

No, normally a Trip attack is done without using a weapon. If you fail to trip your target, they get a chance to trip you back.

If you have a trip weapon you can use it to make the Trip attack, and if you fail to trip your target, you can choose to drop the trip weapon and prevent them from trying to Trip you in return.