Improving 3.X Rogue's combat abilities

[Dannyalcatraz]

I don't have a problem with 3.X Sneak Attack as it is, but I understand how some might, in the light of "so many" creatures immune to Sneak Attacks.

I also understand how some of the Feats and PrCls that address some of those concerns are not always viable choices in a particular game.

So, without buying into the need to improve a Rogue's combat ability, I nonetheless have a proposal, based on HERO system...which WILL need some fleshing out.

HERO has an ability called "Find Weakness" by which a PC with that ability can find a weakness in his foe's defenses, making him easier for that PC to fight.

I think this is a classic Rogue-esque ability, but the question is: How would we do this in 3.X D&D?

1) Open all of the Knowledge skills that may supply info about creatures- Arcana, Dungeoneering, Nature, Religion, and The Planes- to Rogues.

2) Make "Find Weakness" into a class ability by which a Rogue may use a KS check against the appropriate skill applicable to his foe in order to divine a weak spot in his foe's defenses. How much he makes his roll by determines the amount by which he reduces the defenses he's working against.

IOW, it is an alternative use of the relevant KS skills for Rogues only, and it is a Move equivalent action- it takes time to evaluate a target's defenses.

So, to Find Weakness against a Golem, he'd have to make a Find Weakness roll using his KS: Arcana skill against a DC of ___________ (I haven't worked out how to set DCs- maybe CR based?). Mere success reduces the Golem's AC by 1. A success by 5 drops the Golem's AC by 3, and a critical success (Nat 20) halves his foe's AC.

3) The FW roll works only 1 time against one of a given target's defense, but it may be applied to other defenses a target has. It can also only be used for other defenses IF the previous roll was successful.

So, if a Rogue were attacking a target with high AC and some kind of Energy Resistance or DR, he would roll a FW roll against the target's AC. If successful, he could then roll again to determine if he could find a weakness in the target's Energy Resistance or DR (player's choice).

OBVIOUSLY, this system needs additional work to be fully usable- any ideas?

 

[concerro]

The archivist has a class ability that allows more damage to be done if it makes a certain knowledge check. You could do something similar to that.

 

[Sadrik]

If the effect is to lower the AC of the creature then why dont you simply have it be opposed by the creatures AC.

Appropiate Knowledge skill vs. AC to reduce AC for that round by the amount of success to a minimum of touch AC. This would sem pretty good.

You could also just sub in the ranger's favored enemy class feature too as that seems to be what you are going after.

 

[Sadrik]

Neat, a double post.

 

[Stormborn]

Depends on how complicated you want to make it. One solution I have used with the un-critable is to change everything to Fortification, IOW rather than being immune to crits there is simply a % chance that due to unusual physiology that the crit fails to do the multiplier damage. I also appy that to sneak attack. A potential crit or SA against an Iron Golem would have, for example, a 25% chance of success while against some low CR undead it might have a 75% chance.

OTOH if you want to just give Rogues a boon to this you could simply say "For every 5 ranks (or for every 3, or 10, or whatever) in an associated Knowledge skill a Rogue has he may add 1d6 of SA damage when making a successful SA against a creature that would otherwise not normally be subject to SA or crits." It would cut down on the rolls.

 

[Arkhandus]

Sounds similar to one of my abilities for the Aurelian Ranger.

Spot Weakness (Ex): Rangers learn to find and take advantage of even the briefest, smallest emergence of a weakpoint in the opponent's defenses. By 19th-level they have perfected this technique, gaining practical use of it for significant personal benefit. Henceforth, they may attempt a special Spot check as a move-equivalent action, opposed by a DC of 15 + the number of hit dice possessed by one target foe within sight. The ranger cannot take 10 on this check. This is an extraordinary ability that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

If the check succeeds, the ranger's next attack against that target this round ignores half of the target's armor or natural armor bonus to AC, rounded down, whichever AC bonus is higher and valid. The target must be within 100 feet at the time of the Spot check and the attack, or else Spot Weakness fails to have any effect. Armor bonuses that derive only from force effects or other immaterial effects (such as monkish ki abilities) cannot be ignored by Spot Weakness.



Besides that, maybe you could let rogues swap Sneak Attack dice (at the levels they get them, individually) for some kind of Find Weakness benefit each time. Say, for each Sneak Attack die they give up, the rogue gets 1 point of Find Weakness. For each point of Find Weakness the rogue possesses, he or she ignores 1 point of others creatures' Armor Class and Damage Reduction, when those creatures do not have any concealment or total cover.

To gain the benefit against any given creature, the Rogue must succeed at an appropriate Knowledge check (as listed in the core rules) against a DC of 10 + the opponent's CR, which requires a move-equivalent action in studying the opponent. Alternatively, if you don't want to give rogues all Knowledge skills as class skills, just make it an Intelligence check against a DC of 10 + half the opponent's CR, rounded down, with the Rogue probably adding his or her Find Weakness value to his Int check.

So, a rogue who reaches high levels while giving up all Sneak Attack dice for Find Weakness would be able to easily hit and injure any opponent, easily passing the check, but wouldn't deal the scads of bonus damage that Sneak Attack would have otherwise provided against most targets. But Find Weakness would apply against any and all kinds of creature.

A rogue who gave up, say, half of his Sneak Attack dice over time would still deal respectable damage against SA-vulnerable opponents, just not awesome damage, and would be able to use Find Weakness for greater assurances of Sneak Attack going through and to improve his combat ability against things like constructs, elementals, plants, and undead. Find Weakness for that Rogue would just mean having the relative accuracy of a Fighter, with the 5 points of Find Weakness over time compensating for the lower BAB in terms of accuracy, and the 5 points of DR-penetration would help make up for the lack of a Fighter's extra attack/weapon spec.

In either case, Find Weakness would make it a lot more viable for the Rogue to use Power Attack or Combat Expertise, if they took those feats, so that would be a minor plus. Whenever they didn't need the extra accuracy of FW, they could still use it to give them wiggle room for PA or CE bonuses that round. Similarly, for rogues without those feats, it would make fighting defensively a slightly less difficult option.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Thanks for the responses!

1) I'd like to look at the Archivist. In which book is it described?

2)

If the effect is to lower the AC of the creature then why dont you simply have it be opposed by the creatures AC.

I have an impression that some critters that are immune to SA damage don't have high ACs, so it would seem that it might make overcoming their otherwise potent defenses a little too easy.

Perhaps if the critter's CR was added into the equation?

3)

You could also just sub in the ranger's favored enemy class feature too as that seems to be what you are going after.

Its similar, but not quite the same. The Ranger's FE feature is automatic and takes no time.

The FW alternate skill use of KS skills is just that- a test of skill. The Rogue must remember his lessons, analyze his foe, then act...something that delays his jumping into the fray.

However, its also broader than the Ranger's FE feature, since it can apply to any foe for which he has the appropriate KS skills, while Rangers only get new FEs every few levels.

4)

Depends on how complicated you want to make it. One solution I have used with the un-critable is to change everything to Fortification, IOW rather than being immune to crits there is simply a % chance that due to unusual physiology that the crit fails to do the multiplier damage.

I don't want to remove the crit immunity, just raise the likelihood that the Rogue will do some kind of damage...effectively a BAB boost on that first roll against an opponent, but possibly a bit more with subsequent FR rolls.

5)

OTOH if you want to just give Rogues a boon to this you could simply say "For every 5 ranks (or for every 3, or 10, or whatever) in an associated Knowledge skill a Rogue has he may add 1d6 of SA damage when making a successful SA against a creature that would otherwise not normally be subject to SA or crits." It would cut down on the rolls.

That's not bad, but I really want this to be something requiring a roll- a test of the Rogue's skills at that instant, and not necessarily allowing SA damage that would normally be allowed. By making it a roll, he'll be able to use it against one foe of a given type, but may utterly fail against a similar foe in a subsequent- or even the same- melee.

(I'm not decided either way as to whether SA damage should be allowed or not after a successful FW roll- feel free to try to sell me on either position.)

6)

Sounds similar to one of my abilities for the Aurelian Ranger.

Spot Weakness (Ex)
<snip>

Lots of good stuff in there...I'll have to think about that some more.

 

[Thanael]

The Archivist class is available online in the Heroes of Horror Excerpt

 

[Drowbane]

You could use the Iaijutsu damage chart for your Find Weakness. Kind of a weakened Iaijutsu Focus (10 seperate skills)

 

[Starbuck_II]

I don't have a problem with 3.X Sneak Attack as it is, but I understand how some might, in the light of "so many" creatures immune to Sneak Attacks.

I also understand how some of the Feats and PrCls that address some of those concerns are not always viable choices in a particular game.

There is also an alternate class feature: trade trap sense for deal 1/2 sneak attack to immune creatures (so you always get to deal it).

Really, it isn't hard to get sneak attack to be with it now that it works on everything.