I use milestone leveling almost exclusively, mostly because that is the preference of my players. But I keep the milestones decentralized, so that destabilizing a thieves guild is just as worthy as reinforcing the supplies of the local guard, etc. There are several major story elements available to be chased for milestones, but the party can wander off and do other notable things to earn them.
In Defense of Milestone Leveling
- Thread starter CleverNickName
- Start date
akr71
Hero
"Learn from your mistakes." I find it odd that a character's success and growth should only hinge on combat success. As such, I don't mind rewarding XP for failed combat ("Well, let's not do THAT again!"), finding traps - whether by clever investigation and disarming or by a good, old-fashioned 'Oops!" and role play.
As a DM, I'm a fan of milestone leveling. There's much less accounting for me and I tend to think of levels as 'chapters.' When a chapter is done, the characters should level or receive some other reward. Then I design enough combat encounters to get the characters 'in the neighborhood' if I were doing XP and I assume that the rest of the XP comes from role-play, finding traps, exploring the area, etc.
As a player, I must admit that I like when the DM at the end of the session says "You all get x Experience for tonight's session."
As a DM, I'm a fan of milestone leveling. There's much less accounting for me and I tend to think of levels as 'chapters.' When a chapter is done, the characters should level or receive some other reward. Then I design enough combat encounters to get the characters 'in the neighborhood' if I were doing XP and I assume that the rest of the XP comes from role-play, finding traps, exploring the area, etc.
As a player, I must admit that I like when the DM at the end of the session says "You all get x Experience for tonight's session."
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
"I want to get better at doing my job" seems like a reasonable justification for choosing to engage with a thing that grants XP.
In any case, it's nobody's business how a player arrives at a decision to have his or her character do a thing in my view except that player.
Running a chain of WotC adventures (LMoP->ToD + SKT > OotA) led me to doing milestone leveling at the end of a particular chapter/major accomplishment - things got looser with OotA as it's a remix). This has led me to feel unsatisfied because the leveling seems to come from DM fiat: jump through my hoops and you'll eventually get to level when I say so.
In future campaigns I'm going to switch to milestone XP in order to provide a bit more granularity (and visible progress!) for the players. Definitely don't want to just do plain encounter based XP though.
In future campaigns I'm going to switch to milestone XP in order to provide a bit more granularity (and visible progress!) for the players. Definitely don't want to just do plain encounter based XP though.
CleverNickName
Limit Break Dancing
I didn't think about the "visible progress" that tracking XP can provide...as a player I really like the little feelings of accomplishment and kudos that the DM gives out. Getting them all at once might feel a little hollow, especially if it takes several gaming sessions to see any progress of any kind.
I'll have to think about this a little more, and try to find a way to provide that same feel. Switching to milestone XP (instead of milestone leveling) might be the way to go.
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
I always award XP at the end of the scene in which it is earned, so the players are getting little bumps all session long. If anyone levels up, it's handled on the spot and then we continue forward.
Swarmkeeper
Hero
I've been having a similar internal dialog about XP and leveling. I agree that Milestone leveling seems to be "leveling by DM fiat". In my campaigns, I'm awarding XP for many things including: defeating monsters (not necessarily just killing them), discovering plot elements, successful social interactions, thwarting traps and solving puzzles, and completing quests. Perhaps this, too, is "leveling by DM fiat" but just on a more granular level. In fact, maybe anything that is not 1. pure XP for killing enemies or 2. leveling for participating in a set number of sessions is some form of DM fiat leveling.
In our future campaigns, I think I will dabble with session participation leveling - I just need to find something that works well. Maybe by Tiers: 2 sessions to level up in Tier 1; 4 sessions to level up to/within Tier 2; 6 sessions to level up to/within Tier 3; 8 sessions to level up to/within Tier 4. Of course, that means 98 sessions to get from 1 to 20... so probably need to think that over a bit more. I could assign each session a set XP to make it a but more "milestoney" - but that will only work if I want all PCs to be the same level.
In any case, I think any and all permutations of XP/leveling can work, as long as the DM makes it clear at Session 0.
BookBarbarian
Expert Long Rester
I run (almost) the very laziest game I possibly can. I run published adventures so I don't worry about that side of things. Likewise I use session (well adventuring-day based) based leveling. If you survive enough adventuring days you advance to the next level.
I want to use all my limited brainpower on thinking about players approaches and coming up with interesting consequences for them.
I know there are awesome things I could do to us XP to reward certain styles of play. I also know my life would be dramatically improved if I knew a lot more about investing my finances. Still I am too lazy to do either.
I want to use all my limited brainpower on thinking about players approaches and coming up with interesting consequences for them.
I know there are awesome things I could do to us XP to reward certain styles of play. I also know my life would be dramatically improved if I knew a lot more about investing my finances. Still I am too lazy to do either.
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
I would say it only meets the threshold of "DM fiat leveling" when the standards by which a player earns a level is not made clear in advance. To my mind, "get XP for killing monsters," "get XP for completing a quest," and "get XP for showing up to X number of sessions" are not examples of fiat in this context. They are specific metrics by which the player can make decisions, rather than the DM going "Eh, I feel like you should level up now."
CleverNickName
Limit Break Dancing
[MENTION=6801558]robus[/MENTION], [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION], [MENTION=6921763]DM Dave1[/MENTION]: Is "DM fiat leveling" even a bad thing? The DM controls how many battles occur and when, and determines how many monsters are in each...therefore, the DM fully controls XP already. Any control the player has over XP is purely an illusion.
Milestone leveling might break the illusion, but it's not like the concept is new...
Milestone leveling might break the illusion, but it's not like the concept is new...
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akr71
Hero
I think there is room for a hybrid XP/milestone system. I've sort of adopted one with my group - I have an idea on where the next milestone is and based on progress toward that milestone, I will award a chunk of XP. A sandbox campaign can make this increasingly difficult, but if the players give you a clear indication on what their goals are, it isn't that much harder to sort out. If their objectives switch unexpectedly, it might take me a couple of days to rework the 'mini-milestones' but it isn't rocket science.
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
That is not necessarily so, depending on how the game is structured. In a fairly-open sandbox campaign or simply a location-based adventure, the DM may set which monsters are where and how much XP they are worth, but it's on the players to engage with them in a way that gets them XP (however that is set up in the game). The DM doesn't actually know with certainty how much XP a group will collect in such a game - the players may choose to skip or avoid certain challenges.
My main issue with "Milestone Leveling" is that it discourages creativity.
Instead of figuring interesting ways to change the world, the PCs will tend to stick to actions that are expected to reward Minestone levels.
This often means blindly and sheepishly following storyline hooks.
Instead of figuring interesting ways to change the world, the PCs will tend to stick to actions that are expected to reward Minestone levels.
This often means blindly and sheepishly following storyline hooks.
Swarmkeeper
Hero
Yeah, it doesn't have to be a bad thing, [MENTION=50987]CleverNickName[/MENTION] and we may be painting with too broad a brush to call several styles "DM Fiat".
I think [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION] nailed it: Make it clear in advance by what metrics the PCs gain levels. Then the whole "DM fiat pejorative" goes away. Even if the DM says up front: "you gain levels when I say so" (perhaps the only true DM Fiat style). If all the players are on board with that loosey gooseyness, well that's fine for that table - even if that's a leveling style I'm definitely pretty sure most of us probably wouldn't go for.
The Crimson Binome
Hero
The DM populates the world with monsters, but the players control where they go, and who they engage against. The PCs are the ones who choose whether to visit the land of vampires or the land of goblins, and they control whether they head toward population centers or wilderness.
As long as the DM is obligated to be fair and impartial, they have far less control over what happens than any of the players do.
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
However one may feel about event-based adventures (aka "plot-based adventures"), incentivizing following the plot is going to naturally lead to better outcomes than not doing so if the DM is running an event-based adventure. Thus, milestone XP or "milestone leveling" - provided we're not actually talking about "DM fiat leveling" - is a good tool here.
As for discouraging creativity, I would suggest the opposite may be true. If character advancement is tied to overcoming a particular challenge or participating in particular events, then the players can certainly work to figure out how to achieve that creatively. Assuming the DM has not prescribed a single solution, creativity can be applied to reach one.
Bawylie
A very OK person
I think if you’re going to do milestones, you actually have to set them and flag them as rewardable. And you’ll also have to flag optional stuff for additional rewards.
Something like: “Quest: Retrieve the Maguffin from the goblin encampment for a BIG REWARD.” Pair that with optional stuff like “Bonuses: obtain the Maguffin without being detected by the goblins for a small reward. Defeat the goblin chief for a small reward. Rescue any hostages for a small reward.”
Something LIKE that. Exactly what isn’t important - what matters is that the players’ decisions, choices, and actions achieve the award.
If you just go with DM fiat as “milestone” leveling, then it can feel to some players that the decisions aren’t meaningful and carry less weight.
IMO they play better when their actions have consequences (for good or ill).
Something like: “Quest: Retrieve the Maguffin from the goblin encampment for a BIG REWARD.” Pair that with optional stuff like “Bonuses: obtain the Maguffin without being detected by the goblins for a small reward. Defeat the goblin chief for a small reward. Rescue any hostages for a small reward.”
Something LIKE that. Exactly what isn’t important - what matters is that the players’ decisions, choices, and actions achieve the award.
If you just go with DM fiat as “milestone” leveling, then it can feel to some players that the decisions aren’t meaningful and carry less weight.
IMO they play better when their actions have consequences (for good or ill).
Satyrn
First Post
I want to add to this.
Although I actually found this less-satisfying than gaining XP during our last session, my last session of play was still immensely fun.
Gaining XP and leveling is such a tiny part of what playing this game is about for me, which is why I said in my first post of this thread that I really don't care what system is used.
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