Inspiration is a PC-on-PC Social Skills Question

[Tony Vargas]

And I started thinking, that sounds like something that would happen in Fate: I'd create an Aspect of "Newfound Respect for the Rogue" or something, and use that in combat. So it's not that I dislike that way of handling it in and of itself; it just doesn't sit right with me to do it in D&D. It clashes in some way with what I want to do and get from this type of game.

That is interesting. D&D is the game many - probably most of us started with - and it is the first, oldest, most-played RPG there is. And, it didn't change a whole lot the first 25 years it was around. So it's only logical that it would have a much more pronounced sense of identity (or that it'd be a calcified dinosaur fossil, depending on how you want to spin it), making anything outside the 'classic game' box a potential source of disequilibrium.

Thing is, as much as 5e strove to get it's basic pdf and no-options-turned-on PH modes of play to capture that classic feel (and with great success, imho), it does also provide options that go beyond it - mostly still within a larger 3.5/PF box, but still beyond it.
And there's nothing wrong with providing more such options.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

War domain is not an expert warrior.

Your definitions are not definitive.

They get heavy armor and martial weapon proficiencies from 1st level. That alone makes them an expert warrior.

On top of that they get bonus action attacks, guided strike, both their channel divinities are warrior-centric, and they eventually get frikkin avatar of battle!

They look pretty darn expert warrior to me.

Could you imagine how embarrassed the god of war would be if the other gods saw his clerics weren't expert warriors? He'd never hear the end of it.

 

[mellored]

They get heavy armor and martial weapon proficiencies from 1st level. That alone makes them an expert warrior.

Is that all you need to qualify for the war god's blessing?

A wizard with a few feats can also get those proficiency. So he can get the war god's blessing?

On top of that they get bonus action attacks, guided strike, both their channel divinities are warrior-centric, and they eventually get frikkin avatar of battle!

All of which is granted to them by the god.
YOU don't bring anything but proficiency to the table.

Could you imagine how embarrassed the god of war would be if the other gods saw his clerics weren't expert warriors? He'd never hear the end of it.

You mean like a war cleric going up against a fighter?

Yea, it is rather embarrassing. The cleric needs constant boosts from his god, and still can't keep up with someone who isn't blessed.

I mean really... your a god of war and you choose
1 guy with armor and weapons, and nothing else to him...
over
1 guy with armor and weapons, who can attack faster (multi-attack), is stronger (more ABI), tougher (higher HD), and more skillfully (fighting style).


The war god should choose the person who's good at war. Get himself a real champion, a real master of battle, not just bless someone who just got his associates degree. Make your avatar of battle out of someone who can actually battle.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

Is that all you need to qualify for the war god's blessing?

Given that your question was not, "what qualifies you for the war god's blessing?", I'm fairly certain you are confused as to what it is you are actually asking. Please clarify.

A wizard with a few feats can also get those proficiency. So he can get the war god's blessing?

Again, not your claim. You stated an opinion that a war cleric was not an expert warrior. You did not ask, "what does it take to get the war god's blessing?"

Please try to avoid strawmen. Otherwise we are going to find ourselves discussing past each other.

All of which is granted to them by the god.
YOU don't bring anything but proficiency to the table.

Again, not in any way related to the previous opinion you provided.

Side note: I see that, for someone who has made arguments that power sources are laregely fluff and should be marginalized, you seem to now be taking a hard stance that power source significantly matters. Which is it?

You mean like a war cleric going up against a fighter?

Yea, it is rather embarrassing.

My considerable practical experience with 5e appears to run counter to your theory here. (Hint: I've played both war clerics and fighters in 5e.)

The cleric needs constant boosts from his god, and still can't keep up with someone who isn't blessed.

Show your math. And that last part seems oddly worded. What do you mean?

I mean really... your a god of war and you choose
1 guy with armor and weapons, and nothing else to him...
over
1 guy with armor and weapons, who can attack faster (multi-attack), is stronger (more ABI), tougher (higher HD), and more skillfully (fighting style).

The war god should choose the person who's good at war. Get himself a real champion, a real master of battle, not just bless someone who just got his associates degree. Make your avatar of battle out of someone who can actually battle.

I'm just glad you are likewise casting doubt on this whole overly-simplified "that's just how silo-ed systems have to work" argument being touted by some.

 

[mellored]

Given that your question was not, "what qualifies you for the war god's blessing?", I'm fairly certain you are confused as to what it is you are actually asking. Please clarify.

Yea, that is what i asked...

Why is my devoted, acolyte, insightful fighter not imbued with divine magic?
But a cleric is?

Side note: I see that, for someone who has made arguments that power sources are laregely fluff and should be marginalized, you seem to now be taking a hard stance that power source significantly matters. Which is it?

You're the one who said it matters. So i'm asking you what the fluff is.

I mean, balance is a good reason. Giving the fighter cast all of a war clerics abilities and spells would be pretty ridiculous. But it's a game reason, not a fluff reason.

Otherwise we are going to find ourselves discussing past each other.

I'm pretty sure that's been happening the whole time.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

Yea, that is what i asked...

Yet here's the claim you made to which I was responding.

You're the one who said it matters.

Agreed. And I have. Because it does. I'm glad we are now on the same page.

 

[mellored]

Yet here's the claim you made to which I was responding.

That a war domain is not an expert warrior?

He's not. He's an entry level warrior. Less of a warrior then a level 1 fighter, who can channel the divinity of a war god.

"From 1st level, your god delivers bolts of inspiration to you while you are engaged in battle."

Agreed. And I have. Because it does. I'm glad we are now on the same page.

Yet you won't tell me why a war god would bless a basic warrior over an expert warrior.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

That a war domain is not an expert warrior?

He's not. He's an entry level warrior. Less of a warrior then a level 1 fighter, who can channel the divinity of a war god.

A level 1 fighter is also an entry level warrior. In fact, I challenge you to show how a level 1 fighter is noticeably more an "expert warrior" than a level 1 war cleric. Same armor. Same weapons. Same attack bonus. Same number of attacks. The only thing left is HD. And if you think 2 less HPs is enough to warrant downgrading competence, then a fighter is not an expert warrior either. Cuz barbarian.

"From 1st level, your god delivers bolts of inspiration to you while you are engaged in battle."

Sounds like that would make him fight pretty well to me.

Yet you won't tell me why a war god would bless a basic warrior over an expert warrior.

I did. Ask the god. Why does any divine being choose whom they choose? The same could be said of faiths in our own world. It's a mystery. They have their unknowable reasons. Since you are presumably creating the fiction in your games, I recommend you come up with something that you like. Or, better yet, be uncertain yourself. Let the narrative of the story help eek it out and discover it over time (or never do - even that works too).

(Also, I again challenge your unsupportable differentiation between supposedly "basic warrior" and "expert warrior", since you continue to avoid showing your math.)

 

[jayoungr]

That is interesting. D&D is the game many - probably most of us started with - and it is the first, oldest, most-played RPG there is.

It is possibly relevant that I didn't start with D&D. The group I first started playing with about ten years ago prefers classless point-buy systems such as GURPS. We had a brief flirtation with 4E, but it only lasted a few sessions, mostly due to the GM finding a "new shiny" system to try out. I didn't get to play/run much D&D until I acquired a second group online, about two and a half years ago.

ETA: Miscounted, it was one and a half years (spring 2014).

 

[mellored]

A level 1 fighter is also an entry level warrior. In fact, I challenge you to show how a level 1 fighter is noticeably more an "expert warrior" than a level 1 war cleric.

Fighting style.

Sounds like that would make him fight pretty well to me.

That's like saying a wizard can be an expert fighter if he's inspired by a bard.

It's a mystery.

So.. you answer is there is no answer?
So you'd be fine with me bringing a fighter 20/cleric 20 to your game?

(Also, I again challenge your unsupportable differentiation between supposedly "basic warrior" and "expert warrior", since you continue to avoid showing your math.)

1d8+3+2 (dualist) > 1d8+3
= 23.5% more damage.

12 HP + 6.5 second wind > 10 HP.
= 85% more survivable.

So yea, fighter is defiantly a better warrior.