Insta-Kill Spell Alternatives?

[A'koss]

Insta-kill powers along with easy resurrections are the two things I hate the most about D&D. The only Save or Die effects I could tolerate would be if they could only effect targets 10 levels lower than the character who cast them or had some kind of hard HD cap well below the caster's. Otherwise, straight damage works just fine IMO.

No perfectly healthy character should be just one poor roll away from being screwed and the fact that the higher level you are, the more likely this is to happen just grates me to no end.

A'koss.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Is this what you're looking for?

Yeah, that's it. Thanks.

Shilsen: I like some of those ideas. Maybe I'll steal 'em.

 

[Saeviomagy]

The other possibility is to replace all the save-or-die (or save-or-be-taken-out-of-the-fight) spells with save-or-take-stat-damage.

ie - if you get hit by petrification, it's save or take dex damage as you start to harden up. If you've got an average dex, you'll petrify quickly. If you're normally really nimble, it might take some time.

The other possibility for this is that a save still leaves you taking half. That has the added advantage that save-or-die spells don't become totally useless without a massive boost to save DCs.

 

[Heathen72]

I like this idea. Nice and simple, and one of the rare times where not even the player knows the PC's current hit points. Could make for some exciting results.

I came up with it as a player, after everyone left me dying on the battlefield (instead of rushing to my aid) because they new I had 6 rounds left. I know that they had a battle to win, but it made me feel like a bit of a commodity, instead of a valued friend on death's door. It should never be certain how long someone has left, and if the time a PC has left is unknown to the party, it makes the choice not to rush to the side of a critically ill companion a lot riskier.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I came up with it as a player, after everyone left me dying on the battlefield (instead of rushing to my aid) because they new I had 6 rounds left. I know that they had a battle to win, but it made me feel like a bit of a commodity, instead of a valued friend on death's door. It should never be certain how long someone has left, and if the time a PC has left is unknown to the party, it makes the choice not to rush to the side of a critically ill companion a lot riskier.

I can't remember where its from, but there's an alternate rule where you make Fortitude saves while unconcious, and if you fail three (two ?) in a row you die. That might be to your liking? I'm sure someone here knows where that's from.

 

[DM-Rocco]

Or better, negative d10 (with 10 being zero). The GM makes the roll secretly, and you'd need to make a pretty good heal check to see how long someone had left if you were in the middle of combat etc. I reckon it has to be hidden, nothing more annoying than lying there dying, and no one cares because 'you have another 7 rounds left' I takes all the drama out of almost buying the farm.

To add a bit of realism, I don't tell the PCs how much damage they have taken, thus they never know how close they are to death. I just tell them they are greatly wound, near death, slight scraps, you get the idea. The players hate it, and once you deal with the one who has the biggest objection, they settle down and pay a bit more attention to things.

Anyway, right now I am at a cross roads with my campaign because of Holy Word. There are a few other issues, but the automatic instant effects of Holy Word make it all but impossible to plan encounters that are fair and balanced. I don't mind a wail of the banshee taking out all of the enemies, but Holy Word is just nuts and I don't feel like making every encounter have a bard who makes them all immune to sonic energy or clerics who protect them with spell immunity, not realistic. Anyway, I like the instant effects spells, but I agree that a new system should be used. I like that link to Monte Cook's thread, good ideas there. Thanks for posting that.

 

[Wasteland Knight]

Insta-kill powers along with easy resurrections are the two things I hate the most about D&D. The only Save or Die effects I could tolerate would be if they could only effect targets 10 levels lower than the character who cast them or had some kind of hard HD cap well below the caster's. Otherwise, straight damage works just fine IMO.

No perfectly healthy character should be just one poor roll away from being screwed and the fact that the higher level you are, the more likely this is to happen just grates me to no end.

Yes, but can't direct damage spells be just that, save or die effects? Consider this, a Maximized Fireball explodes in the midst of a group of adventurers. A failed Reflex save for the Barbarian means he's pretty burned, but still on his feat. A failed Reflex save for the Wizard means he's knocked below -10 and instantly killed. So in this case, a direct damage spell has just become an instant-kill. So if pumped up damage spells that can instantly kill characters with low hit points (even when at full health) are acceptable, then why can't spells that kill with some other "flavor" be acceptable? I agree being screwed over on a single roll isn't any fun, but at some point in D&D this happens, and IMHO removing the save or die spells wouldn't be a total fix.

 

[A'koss]

Yes, but can't direct damage spells be just that, save or die effects? Consider this, a Maximized Fireball explodes in the midst of a group of adventurers. A failed Reflex save for the Barbarian means he's pretty burned, but still on his feat. A failed Reflex save for the Wizard means he's knocked below -10 and instantly killed. So in this case, a direct damage spell has just become an instant-kill. So if pumped up damage spells that can instantly kill characters with low hit points (even when at full health) are acceptable, then why can't spells that kill with some other "flavor" be acceptable? I agree being screwed over on a single roll isn't any fun, but at some point in D&D this happens, and IMHO removing the save or die spells wouldn't be a total fix.

No, it is indeed not so simple a fix. Yes, damage can be save or die for weak characters and naturally I don't like it any more than the "true" save or die effects.

Part of the problem is the huge disparity we see in the classes - HPs, Saves, Attack bonuses, ACs... What is merely annoying for one character can be utterly lethal to another. One thing I'm hoping for in the next edition is reducing those disparities and bringing damage down to a sane level overall. It's hard enough to get a character into levels in the teens, you shouldn't be "rewarded" by being easier to kill by threats appropriate to your level. I'd like to see the game geared more towards "hard to die, hard to come back", rather than the opposite.

A'koss.

 

[frankthedm]

I want a slow petrify effect.

fort save avoid, then fort save every round. . first failed save, become slowed. second; 'entagled'. 3rd fatiged, 4th exhausted 5th rock.

One thing I'm hoping for in the next edition is reducing those disparities and bringing damage down to a sane level overall. It's hard enough to get a character into levels in the teens, you shouldn't be "rewarded" by being easier to kill by threats appropriate to your level. I'd like to see the game geared more towards "hard to die, hard to come back", rather than the opposite.

Would be nice, but that would need to rebuild from a 2nd edition basis of characters recieve HD untill 10th level, then +n HP a level after.

Li Shenron

Well, there is always the blunt but otherwise perfectly balanced solution of not playing past character level 10th.......

Anyway I like the suggestion of "down to -9": it allows a second chance to save a comrade, and it works in favor of the PCs definitely.

I kinda like the 10th level idea to avoid the number crunching of WotC's EXTREME D&D that doesn't stop until the PCs Blow up the world with Dungeons and Dragonballs epic rules.

I would think the best way to create the instant kill effects would be to have them deal a large amout of 'damage'. But, also create both body and mind "HP" and AC totals allowing mental based characters to defend againts potent magical effects. INT attacks like STR, Wis dodges like DEX, Charisma soaks like CON. Fair to both sides without favoring anyone.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Yes, but can't direct damage spells be just that, save or die effects?

Not really. PCs usually heal up between encounters so the risk of one damage spell taking them out on Round 1 isn't that great. The same can't be said about the insta-kill spells...