Insubstantial and weakened

[sammy]

I wanted to be sure I was doing this correct.

A weakened character that hits an insubstantial target does 1/2 for weakened and 1/2 again for insub, or 1/4 damage.

Right or no?

Sammy

 

[Nail]

Yup, you got it right.



...and you REALLY shouldn't use it. It's a poorly designed monster. Re-design it.

 

[the Jester]

Yup, you got it right.



...and you REALLY shouldn't use it. It's a poorly designed monster. Re-design it.

I would say rather, use moderation. Don't run an encounter with 5 weaking insubstantial regenerating monsters. Use 2 WIRMs and 3 other creatures, hazards or traps.

 

[sammy]

I was actually using the Nightworm Fortress module. I will now tone down a few things, cause thats a deadly and frustrating combo. Almost lost the Swordmage and the fighter in the group.

Sammy

 

[frankthedm]

Now specifically, is it Damage halved, then round down followed by damage halved, then round down or Quarter damage, then round down?

 

[keterys]

Is there a time in which you get different results depending on which answer you get?

For example, 15 / 2 = 7 / 2 = 3, whereas 15 / 4 = 3.

At any rate, I think as a rule of thumb never put weaken on insubstantial. But it's okay to put weakening creatures alongside insub... that way the party always has a choice to attack someone for at least 1/2 damage.

Oh and regen is just generally overused, and the wraith is an example of a horrible combination of abilities.

 

[Nail]

Yup, you got it right.



...and you REALLY shouldn't use it. It's a poorly designed monster. Re-design it.

I would say rather, use moderation. Don't run an encounter with 5 weaking insubstantial regenerating monsters. Use 2 WIRMs and 3 other creatures, hazards or traps.

Hmmmm.....

I disagree, FWIW. It's just very poor design. The PCs *can* defeat it/them, but it's a grind at best. There's little "pay-off" to counter-act the frustration.

 

[Nebulous]

Hmmmm.....

I disagree, FWIW. It's just very poor design. The PCs *can* defeat it/them, but it's a grind at best. There's little "pay-off" to counter-act the frustration.

How would you do it different? What "defines" a wraith in 4e as different than other monsters incorporeal undead? I genuinely interested in how others would design it.

 

[Nail]

How would you do it different? What "defines" a wraith in 4e as different than other monsters incorporeal undead? I genuinely interested in how others would design it.

A wraith (Level 5 Lurker) weakens opponents on a hit (vs. Ref...so it's likely to hit), is insubstantial (meaning 1/2 damage), and it regenerates. And with phasing and Shadow Glide, there are no OAs to help out. So it's often the case that at least one person attacking the wraith is completely ineffective after the first round.

Are you saying that what defines a wraith is that one attacker is always ineffective?

I'm afraid that's not what I think of when I think "wraith". I think of "a restless apparition [that] lurks in the shadows, thirsting for souls." ...just like the designers do, apparently.

The "weakened" condition sounds good, IMO. It's just when it's combined with all the rest that there's a problem. IIWaD (If I Were a Designer), I'd remove the regeneration, change insubstantial so that all damage is full, and change the hps of the wraith to bring it back in line with other level 5 lurkers. (After all, what to hps represent, anyway? In the wraith's case, they represent how hard it is to damage something that's insubstantial.)

 

[the Jester]

Really, all you need is a little radiant damage. Especially if you rule (as I do) that the "vulnerable to radiant" bonus damage applies after you halve and halve again. (After all, it is added to the damage the wraith actually takes, not the roll for damage that the pc makes.)