INT increases/decreases and Skill Points...

[The Sigil]

say you have an illusionist who has three levels of archmage and an intelligence of 22 (+6 from a headband of intellect gives 28). This 28 gives a +9 bonus to spell DC (and skill points kiddies!).

IMC, a headband of intellect does NOT increase your skill points. Why not? Well, suppose you take the headband off. Do those skills suddenly disappear? If they do, what happens if you put the headband back on? Do you suddenly have a pool of skill points with which to learn totally different skills? Yikes! Potential for abuse there!

On a related note, how do you handle INT increases? Is the skill point boost retroactive to first level (similar to CON increases)? IOW, if I have a 3rd-level character with an INT of 11 and raise it to 12 at 4th level, do I get 4 extra skill points (+1 per level) or 1 extra skill point (+1 at 4th level)?

What happens when you LOSE intelligence (through ability score drain)? Do you lose skills?

Perhaps this belongs in House Rules, but I have used the following and want to know if it's consistent with the "real" rules - or at least folks' interpretation of them

1 - Skill points do not increase (nor decrease) retroactively with Int increases. (This is mostly to prevent bookkeeping problems)

2 - Skill points are not gained from magic items that boost intelligence unless that intelligence boost is an "innate" boost (or whatever the descriptor is on ability-raising tomes). IOW, a headband of Intellect +6 gives you NO bonus skill points when you level. If you read a Tome of Braininess (don't remember the real name) +4, you DO get 2 bonus skill points when you level... but you don't get them retroactively.

3-Level Loss (permanent negative levels or raise effects) - Skill points are not decreased, but no new points are gained until you surpass your previous level (i.e., if you die at level 3, when you are raised you are level 2 - you get no new skill points when you level to 3 - you have to wait until level 4).

Rationale: This reduces bookkeeping significantly, and that is of course a consideration. In terms of realism, I feel it's valid as well since in my mind Intelligence is the abstraction of your ABILITY/CAPACITY to learn, not the learning itself. The learning itself is represented in Skill Points, Languages Known, and (if applicable) Arcane Spells using Int as their key ability. Losing the ability/capacity to learn does not diminish what has already been learned. Similarly, increasing the ability/capacity does not suddenly grant you extra learning - only time and work can do that. Headbands and the like are part-time boosts and therefore not effective (I know, I know, you wear your headband all the time just like you wear your armor all the time) and that's why you don't get the benefits IMC. Tomes, on the other hand, with innate (inherent?) bonuses, actually literally expand your mind on a full-time basis which is why you DO receive skill points (when you level of course) due to these kinds of bonuses.

What do you folks think? Official rulings, errata, and critique of my rulings welcome. Again, I don't know if this is House Rules or not because I haven't seen anything in the official rules that suggests it should go one way or the other (admittedly, I haven't looked for it and it was the quote from another thread that stimulated it).

--The Sigil

 

[Crothian]

1 - Skill points do not increase (nor decrease) retroactively with Int increases. (This is mostly to prevent bookkeeping problems)

>>>>By the rules this is correct

2 - Skill points are not gained from magic items that boost intelligence unless that intelligence boost is an "innate" boost (or whatever the descriptor is on ability-raising tomes). IOW, a headband of Intellect +6 gives you NO bonus skill points when you level. If you read a Tome of Braininess (don't remember the real name) +4, you DO get 2 bonus skill points when you level... but you don't get them retroactively.

>>>>You have to have the item for a while, according to the rules for items like the headband to increase your skill points.

Also, note if you raise your Int (at levels 4, 8, etc) you do not gain the skill point that level. You have to wait to the nesxt for the bonus to apply.

 

[The Sigil]

Re: Re: INT increases/decreases and Skill Points...

>>>>You have to have the item for a while, according to the rules for items like the headband to increase your skill points.

Not to be annoying or anything, but would you please point me to the place in the rules where this is mentioned? (I'm not challenging you, I just want to be able find it so I can read it, too.)

Also, note if you raise your Int (at levels 4, 8, etc) you do not gain the skill point that level. You have to wait to the nesxt for the bonus to apply.

Seems reasonable, I suppose. Do you have a reference for this as well (again, not a challenge, just looking for something I can show my players).

Thanks for the quick response, Crothian.

--The Sigil

 

[mikebr99]

On the level boosting of INT... I've ruled that it is retroactive... just like CON. But you can only put these new skill points into existing skills... you've just awakened/re-worked existing knowledge to be able to use the skill better etc.

As far as magic item boosts to abilities... after the character has used the item enough, ie. gained enough experience top go up a level, then the item has been fully attuned to you that these bonuses would also be retroactive.

When you loose the magic item or the permanent ability points... you loose the skill points also, like normal.

 

[Crothian]

Re: Re: Re: INT increases/decreases and Skill Points...

Not to be annoying or anything, but would you please point me to the place in the rules where this is mentioned? (I'm not challenging you, I just want to be able find it so I can read it, too.)

Seems reasonable, I suppose. Do you have a reference for this as well (again, not a challenge, just looking for something I can show my players).

Thanks for the quick response, Crothian.

--The Sigil

I really need to start remembering where all this stuff is. It's fine to ask where these rulings are from.

Pg 145 PHB lists what happens in what order as you ganin levels. You get skill points before you raise your attribute. So, the raised attribute doesn't take effect until the next level.

As for the time required for the headband, I think that was gotten from a Sage response. If no amount of time is needed then the party cvan pass around the headband and have each character level seperately and gain the extra skill points. I actually hada group try to do that. Sorry, I can't be more precise on that one.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

Re: Re: INT increases/decreases and Skill Points...

Also, note if you raise your Int (at levels 4, 8, etc) you do not gain the skill point that level. You have to wait to the nesxt for the bonus to apply.

Reference? And why do it this way anyway?

Personally, the bookkeeping gets tedious if someone is depending on items of intelligence in regards to skill points. Personally, I say a character does not get any skill points from intelligence gained from magic items.

As for level loss, I handle it through a house rule by giving the character an XP debt of 500 * level (which is average loss if a character dies). I don't touch anything on the character sheet except giving the XP debt, makes bookkeeping simple and gets rid of the whole "well I used to be able to do X, now I can't anymore...gee, that's odd..."

 

[Dr. Zoom]

PH, page 145, the "Skill Points" paragraph. This addresses both the Int increase every four levels and the headband of intellect.

Note that this is contrary to the section on changing ability scores on page 10, where they give the example of Mialee increasing her Int to 16 at level 4 and gaining the skill point at level 4, not level 5 like page 145 seems to say.

 

[Mr.Binx]

Edit: Bah... nevermind... again someone beat me to it. Yeah, what he said.

 

[Voadam]

I believe that the rules do not allow you to retroactively add in skill points and that you can use an int item to gain extra when you level but if you lose the item they are gone and do not come back if you regain the bonus.

I find that the bookkeeping is easier and makes character checking easier if it is based on total levels, not when you gained the bonuses. Otherwise you have two eighth level clerics with 12 ints, one has 11 more skill points than the other because he started with a higher int while the other spent his level ups on int. Quality checking to verify that mid to high level NPCs have the right number of skill points is a pain for this reason (among others if they are multiclassed). It gets worse if they are cleric 7 rogue 1s one starting as rogue and one taking rogue as his last level.

It comes down to if you are modifying an existing character then the by the rules approach is easy to do and makes sense. But if you need to recreate your character it is a real pain because you must remember the character path as well.

 

[noretoc]

The way I see it, is that if you have an inteliigence increase through MOST of your last level, it means you were uding the hightened INT to learn. Therefore, when you level, you may get the extra skill points. You do not get them retroactive. Then, if you lose the item, you do not lose the skill points. You have already learnt those things. It dosen't hinder your memory, only your ability to learn and think. Losing a level is a special case, as it kind of takes years right out of your life.
This is the way it seems to work according to the PHB