Intelligent Blademaster with Javelin?

[Drudenfusz]

Is it possible to use the benefit of Intelligent Blademaster feat while throwing an Javelin?

A Swordmaster is Proficient with the Javelin.
A Javelin is a melee weapon with the heavy thrown property.
And the Intelligent Blademaster feat is worded:
You can use your Intelligence modifier instead of your Strength modifier when making a basic attack with a melee weapon.

With that allone it seems possible, but now comes the difficult part. on page 215 in the Player's Handbook, there is a sentence about heavy throne melee weapons counts as ranged weapon while thrown (for the purpose of using powers). But does that mean it loses the melee weapen category for that time?

I think it is better for the game if players can use it in this way, cause first the DM can say yes and second a swordmage with low strength (shielding built) will not become useless in ranged combat.

So what's the official ruling?

 

[Larrin]

When you throw a weapon it is considered a ranged weapon, not a melee weapon. Thus a thrown javelin isn't a melee weapon, its a ranged weapon, and not valid for intelligent blademaster. A weapon can't be both melee and ranged at the same time, melee means you are holding it and smacking someone, which is mutually exclusive with throwing it.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I don't think ranged combat is a big part of the Defender role - and, is the swordmage really lacking in ranged powers? I seem to remember not just ranged, but /Area/ powers in the swordmage list. Besides, isn't Intelligent Blademaster for use with, well, blades? The only throwable blade is the dagger, and it's light thrown.

How powers/feats interract with thrown weapons is a little confusing, though. Can a ranger throw handaxes to Split the Tree? Can he use Twin Strike the Throw Hand Axes - if he does, is it DEX because of the power, or STR because they're heavy thrown? /Is that really how it *should* be/?

 

[Tale]

I don't think ranged combat is a big part of the Defender role - and, is the swordmage really lacking in ranged powers? I seem to remember not just ranged, but /Area/ powers in the swordmage list. Besides, isn't Intelligent Blademaster for use with, well, blades? The only throwable blade is the dagger, and it's light thrown.

How powers/feats interract with thrown weapons is a little confusing, though. Can a ranger throw handaxes to Split the Tree? Can he use Twin Strike the Throw Hand Axes - if he does, is it DEX because of the power, or STR because they're heavy thrown? /Is really that how it *should* be/?

You cannot throw weapons for melee powers. You can throw weapons for ranged powers. Heavy thrown applies solely to ranged basic attacks. Twin Strike is not that, thus it goes by what is written on the power.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

You cannot throw weapons for melee powers. You can throw weapons for ranged powers. Heavy thrown applies solely to ranged basic attacks. Twin Strike is not that, thus it goes by what is written on the power.

Yes. The same thing happens with Rogues and Paladins. Both have powers that work in melee and have the weapon keyword, yet they use non-Strength stats (Dex and Cha respectively). You always go by what the power says, not what the weapon would normally do.

As for using a throwing axe with Split the Tree, that's simple. If your Ranger was using a bow and was tracking all of his ammunition closely, as ours does, wouldn't he mark down 2 arrows being used for Split the Tree? By the same token he would need two throwing axes, one for each enemy. Once they get magical weapons, which return when thrown, you can just handwave it and say that he's throwing, catching, then throwing again as part of the power.

Or, if you want to be mean, you can say he needs one weapon for each attack, regardless of the returning properties of magical items.

 

[DracoSuave]

Yes. The same thing happens with Rogues and Paladins. Both have powers that work in melee and have the weapon keyword, yet they use non-Strength stats (Dex and Cha respectively). You always go by what the power says, not what the weapon would normally do.

Actually, technically, weapons don't 'normally do' anything. The property of a ranged attack to use Dexterity is the result of a power, not of any weapon properties. It just happens that Heavy Thrown replaces Dexterity with Strength in the Ranged Basic Attack power, in exactly the same way that Intellegent Blademaster replaces Strength with Intellegence in the Melee Basic Attack power.

All weapons do is provide statistics for powers, to fill in their blanks. They do not do anything inherently on their own.

All that said, throwing a weapon doesn't make it stop being a melee weapon, if it is one. The ____ Thrown property only permits you to use that weapon for a ranged weapon in Ranged-type powers, and uses the weapon itself as ammunition. Heavy Thrown then permits you to substitute Strength for Dexterity in Ranged Basic Attack (it's a Special in the power itself).

So this is what happens.

Thrown substitutes a melee weapon for a ranged weapon, then Heavy substitutes Strength for Dexterity, and finally Intellegent Blademaster substitutes Intellegence for Strength, because the weapon does not stop being a melee weapon.

Exception based design at its best.

 

[Tale]

Thrown substitutes a melee weapon for a ranged weapon, then Heavy substitutes Strength for Dexterity, and finally Intellegent Blademaster substitutes Intellegence for Strength, because the weapon does not stop being a melee weapon.

 

[DracoSuave]

It's probably easier to think of this way. Intellegent Blademaster says 'basic attack with a melee weapon.' Thusly, what is concerned is the property of the weapon, not the property of the attack.

There's only two possible ways of looking at it from that vantage point. Either Javelin is a melee weapon, or Javelin is a melee weapon and ranged weapon simultaneously. Either way, it's a melee weapon.

Thusly, Intellegent Blademaster transforms all instances of Strength with Intellegence in basic attack powers using it. Thusly:

Special: Weapons with the heavy thrown property (see
page 216) use Strength instead of Dexterity for attack
rolls and damage rolls.

becomes

Special: Weapons with the heavy thrown property (see
page 216) use Intellegence instead of Dexterity for attack
rolls and damage rolls.

And that, as they say, is that.

 

[Kordeth]

It's probably easier to think of this way. Intellegent Blademaster says 'basic attack with a melee weapon.' Thusly, what is concerned is the property of the weapon, not the property of the attack.

There's only two possible ways of looking at it from that vantage point. Either Javelin is a melee weapon, or Javelin is a melee weapon and ranged weapon simultaneously. Either way, it's a melee weapon.

Actually, there's a third interpretation: A javelin is a melee weapon when you make a melee attack with it and a ranged weapon when you make a ranged attack with it. As stated on p. 215:

A melee weapon with the heavy thrown or the light thrown property counts as a ranged weapon when thrown and can be used with ranged attack powers that have the weapon keyword.

Now I'll grant you that that sentence doesn't explicitly say a melee weapon only counts as a ranged weapon when thrown, but when faced with the choice between a clear, straightforward interpretation (when you throw a weapon, it's a ranged weapon, and things that affect melee weapon attacks don't affect it) and a convoluted logic train relying on absence of evidence being evidence of absence (the book doesn't explicitly say a thrown weapon no longer counts as a melee weapon when it's being counted as a ranged weapon, therefore it counts as a melee weapon too and can benefit from any melee weapon powers/feats/abilities when it's thrown), I'll take the simple answer.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It's probably easier to think of this way. Intellegent Blademaster says 'basic attack with a melee weapon.' Thusly, what is concerned is the property of the weapon, not the property of the attack.

There's only two possible ways of looking at it from that vantage point. Either Javelin is a melee weapon, or Javelin is a melee weapon and ranged weapon simultaneously. Either way, it's a melee weapon.

You left out a sentence earlier, though.

"You can't use a ranged weapon as a melee weapon. A melee weapon with the heavy thrown or the light thrown property counts as a ranged weapon when thrown and can be used with ranged attack powers that have the weapon keyword."

The Intelligent Blademaster is holding a javelin, which is a melee weapon. He uses Int instead of Str when making a basic attack with a melee weapon. He throws the javelin.

The javelin counts as a ranged weapon. Is the Intelligent Blademaster making a basic attack with a melee weapon? No, because the javelin counts as a ranged weapon right now, and you can't use a ranged weapon as a melee weapon. While he's throwing it, he can't use the javelin as a melee weapon, so he can't make a basic attack with a melee weapon.

-Hyp.