Intensify Spell is an Epic WASTE!!!!

[James McMurray]

The reason enhance is an epic feat is quite simply because it modifies the base spell itself. If you can't see the benefits in that, then by all means you should not let empower stack. However, there are times when it is useful.

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

The reason enhance is an epic feat is quite simply because it modifies the base spell itself. If you can't see the benefits in that, then by all means you should not let empower stack.

Whatever you do with Enhance, I can do the SAME or BETTER with Empower. So then why take it.

However, there are times when it is useful.

Give me ONE example....

 

[James McMurray]

Improved Metamagic x 3, Maximize spell, Enhance spell + Fireball.

5th level slot gives a spell that deals 120 damage.

Compare that to Improved Metamagic + Empower x 2 + Fireball: a 5th level spell that deals 10d6 x 2 damage (average 70).

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Improved Metamagic x 2, Maximize spell, Enhance spell + Fireball.

6th level slot gives a spell that deals 120 damage.

Compare that to Improved Metamagic + Empower x 3 + Fireball: a 6th level spell that deals 10d6 x 2.5 damage (average 87).

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Improved Metamagic x 3 + Enhance Spell + the one that maximizes and doubles + fireball. 5th level spell that deals 240 damage.

Compare that to Improved Metamagic + Empower x 2 + Fireball: a 5th level spell that deals 10d6 x 2 damage (average 70).

Compare that to Improved Metamagic + Empower + max and double feat + Fireball: a 5th level spell that deals 10d6 x .5 + 120 damage (average 155).

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Improved Metamagic x 3 + Enhance Spell + the one that maximizes and doubles + fireball. 7th level spell that deals 240 damage.

Compare that to Improved Metamagic + Empower x 4 + Fireball: a 5th level spell that deals 10d6 x 4 damage (average 140).

Compare that to Improved Metamagic + Empower + max and double feat + Fireball: a 5th level spell that deals 10d6 x .5 + 120 damage (average 155).

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Just because you may have to think a bit to find them does not mean they don't exist. Enhance spell, by itself, is worse than empower. However, when combined with other metamagic feats, you get better results.

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

Improved Metamagic x 3, Maximize spell, Enhance spell + Fireball.

5th level slot gives a spell that deals 120 damage.

Compare that to Improved Metamagic + Empower x 2 + Fireball: a 5th level spell that deals 10d6 x 2 damage (average 70).

Ok ok, you win,

Epic Enhance Spell,
PLUS Epic Improved Metamagic
PLUS ANOTHER Epic Improved Metamagic
yet ANOTHER Epic Improved Metamagic

is BETTER than our lowly Empower Spell feat.

JESUS..........

 

[James McMurray]

There's no reason to be such a putz. If you don't like it, change it in your campaign. But as written, the feats are fine.

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

There's no reason to be such a putz.

Re-read from the first post, I have given NUMEROUS examples of why NOT to take the Metamagic damage increasing feats if you take Empower. I guess your "enlightened" post just rubbed me the wrong way.

I bet that you have NOT played a wizard past 12th level, what looks good on paper does NOT necessarily work in reality.

And YES if you get all your metamagic feats down to +1/level, they will be better than Empower, THAT'S OBVIOUS... Let's see, Maximize, Twin, Chain, wow, at +1/level they are all better... dahhh.

Unfortunately you will have to wait till 30th level for you 3 Improved metamagic feats and once you get there, other wizards will be Empowering Horrid Wiltings at 15th level spell slots and doing over 500 points a pop, while you will be PROUDLY casting 120 point 5th level spells (not to mention the lousy 3rd level saves...ohh damn, he made his save for half damage again!)

Remember, EVERYTIME your wizard takes Enhanced and Improved Metamagic, my wizard will take Improved Spell Capacity (10th, 11th, 12th etc..). There's an opportunity cost there. You will be throwing around powerful fireballs, at 6th, 7th and 9th level slots, I will be throwing around powerful Horrid Wiltings at 15th, 14th, 13th level slots, you do the math...

There are other costs and Enhanced Spell WILL NEVER BE WORTH IT

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

The reason enhance is an epic feat is quite simply because it modifies the base spell itself.

Just out of curiosity, is that written somewhere, or is that an assumption? I don't find "modifies base spell" anywhere in the description of the feat.

 

[James McMurray]

Actually, I showed how enhance would be better even at +2 levels when combined with maximize. I agree with you that enhance by itself is not usually worthwhile (even if you don't take empower at all).

I bet that you have NOT played a wizard past 12th level, what looks good on paper does NOT necessarily work in reality.

You're right. But I have played (and still do play) an 18th level sorcerrer, whose bread and butter is metamagic feats. I don't plan on taking Enhance Spell with him any time soon, but only because damage dealing spells are not his main thrust. If they were, I would think about it.

There are other costs and Enhanced Spell WILL NEVER BE WORTH IT

I've shown three cases where it is. Typing in all caps does not make an incorrect post any more logical.

Just out of curiosity, is that written somewhere, or is that an assumption? I don't find "modifies base spell" anywhere in the description of the feat.

It doesn't have to be written anywhere. It quite obviously modifies the base spell. It says it adds 10 (or 5) to the spell's damage cap. It doesn't say it adds 10 (or 5) dice of damage.

 

[Limper]

"I've shown three cases where it is. Typing in all caps does not make an incorrect post any more logical."

YES IT DOES, SEE? 3E IS BROKEN AND META MAGIC FEATS DON'T WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


With all your posts I thought you'd know this by now.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

No imbalance? Haven't you read the book? It states, and I'm paraphrasing here: "If something in the game is so good that everyone wants it and there is no reason to not take it or to take anything else, then something's wrong, and it's unbalanced."
.

Well if every spellcaster took empower you may, and I repeat may be right. The big difference for spellcasters is the vast majority of feats are physical combat orriented, so they are outright eliminated for wiz/sor as viable options. The number of metamagic feats are fairly small so even though there may be a best amoungst those small number of feats it doesn't make it unbalnced. I've seen scores of wiz/sor refuse to take most metamagic feats because they feel the costs of a feat+large numbers of spell levels make them extremely weak feats. I especially see this in wizards who say empower??? I'll just learn the higher level spell, the minor boosts I get in damage for a few levels just aren't worth it.

But if they are going to take a damage booster feat they will take empower over the rest of the damage boosters feats because amoung that extremely limited number of feats it was the best. Heck if just using the PH we a re talking it and maximize, yeah because empower is better than maximize that means it's unbalanced.