Intimidate in combat: viable?

Personally I think the main problem with the current intimidate rules is that they're too binary. There's no power that's going to allow you to roll at stat - 10 vs will and let you kill any bloodied targets within range: it would be far too good.

And yet, as written that's what the intimidate rules do.

Personally I think they should have written intimidate up as a charisma-fuelled aoe damage power with the fear keyword, making it an excellent minion killer and at the same time grounding it in the normal combat mechanics and not making it crazy-good. That would have gone a long way to relieving DM worry about it, and it might actually see some use.

Intimidate
Encounter, standard
Fear, psychic
All enemies within close burst 3
Intimidate skill - 10 vs will
1d6 psychic damage (increase to 2d6 at 11, 3d6 at 21). Does not affect foes immune to fear.

I'm sure it can still be cheezed, but there are better powers to cheeze.
 
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I think using a skill to outright dictate how another creature behaves doesn't work. Influence perhaps, but not absolute control.
If I ever did entertain the idea of this kind of skill usage, then it would apply to PC's as well as NPC's. Being forced to surrender via die roll a couple times would make the use of this skill unpopular with players.
 

Saeviomagy, interesting idea re: Intimidate. I don't have a problem with it in my group, but I'm still halfway tempted to propose this house rule, seeing how (as someone upthread pointed out) Minions (who should be super-duper vulnerable to Intimidating) are immune to Intimidate by RAW. Intriguing.

And Griogre, YES PLEASE. This is what I have (unsuccessfully, but oh well) been trying to say here. Thanks for putting it better than I was apparently able to. :)

Anyway, the one time I've used Intimidate it succeeded (I rolled well). I also distinctly remember a player using it successfully as well (out of maybe 2 or 3 tries? Dunno for sure.) So, definitely possible.
 

I think using the intimidate in combat rule as straight RAW can be bit silly. I would almost never let a PC force a surrender on a bloodied monster if its allies were all still fighting.

I allow it is a solution if the threat of an encounter is over, but some monsters fight to death. Period.

Rules go both ways AFAIC, How would one feel as a PC if your DM let the monsters roll intimidate checks against you?
 

I think your character idea is totally valid.

I also think -- as a DM -- that I wouldn't allow it to succeed in every encounter. Just as I wouldn't allow combat to succeed in every encounter. Sometimes, you just have to use other options.

In general, I would play this by the RAW and if you succeed, fine. Enemy = intimidated. But remember, you're rolling against each enemy. So again, that's fine.

But, on occasion, you will fight creatures that will fight to the death. Remember, although RAW states Bloodied enemies will be intimidated, the fact of the matter is that some creatures/people act more aggressive when being intimidated. Perhaps instead of having the enemy surrender, I'd have it fly into a "rage." I would NOT give it benefits for doing so, but instead "penalize" it by having it ignore other (potentially more dangerous) attackers to get to you. I would have it ignore the possibility of taking OAs to get to you. Thus, it would likely die or be defeated more quickly, but would not flee.

Also, I would not allow this to work on BBEGs UNLESS I felt it helped the story. Intimidating Magneto? Not gonna happen. Intimidating Toad? Sure. He'll fess up, give you the location of Magneto's hideout, and then either slip away or stab you in the back. Intimidating Pyro? Even easier. This is the guy who'd rather go to jail than die for Magneto's cause, so sure, intimidate him all you want.

Because if you fail the roll, any one of these guys will still trounce you (or at least give it their best shot!).

As an aside, I think Intimidate is THE PERFECT tactic for ending low-threat battles against unnamed badguys. This is a GREAT way to get out of grindy combats that everyone knows the PCs are going to win. Intimidate is like the [ENCOUNTER STOP] command, and should be used by more Players & DMs in order to save the fun fighting for the big, set-piece battles.

That help at all?
 

Personally I think the main problem with the current intimidate rules is that they're too binary. There's no power that's going to allow you to roll at stat - 10 vs will and let you kill any bloodied targets within range: it would be far too good.

And yet, as written that's what the intimidate rules do.

I agree with this. Instead of the DM increasing the intimidate DC to make it impossible to intimidate the Big Bad, have it easier to use but have less effect. So if the big bad has a -1 to attacks for the encounter, or a bigger but briefer penalty or something of that note.
 

I have a similar build for my Dragonborn Starlock (Intimidate 15 at 1st level without magic items, with a potential daily +5 from Feverish Certainty of Caiphon, IMO the most stylish utility power in the game; could be an encounter +5 instead using a different L2 utility, but then I wouldn't get this crazed glare in my eyes and begin performing whatever skill it is in a manner which is simultaneously effective and yet alien and inhuman).

And we are all fine with the ability exactly as written. Because in actual play, it simply feels unwise to actually be totally focused on it; it's simply kept in reserve as a slightly-more-than-once-per-encounter technique. You've gotta have something to do before things get all bloodied all over; in both the OP's post and mine, that's inflicting pretty solid striker damage, call it 90% optimized instead of 100% to make room for the Intimidate toys. Then you get into a real fight and it often happens that enemy A might be bloodied, maybe even enemy B as well, but it's enemy C who's managed to get our Wizard into melee who's the immediate concern. Sometimes it feels worth spending my standard action to try and take out A and B, sometimes it's not.

So I end up using it, I'd guess, about every other fight. And the individual skirmishes it ends are usually ones that we're ever so slightly tired of fighting anyway (or perhaps more accurately, that have lost their initial "cool!" factor), and we're ready to move on to a new and different tactical situation. With the -10 modifier, the binary nature of it is annoying (because it's so all-or-nothing) but neither over- nor under-powered in my experience.

So - is it a good mechanic? Yes. It's honestly quite balanced by the existence of that nasty -10 penalty (not uncommonly -15 due to language). Is it optimally designed? No. Not working on minions (who ought to be the easiest targets for it), all-or-nothing results, and the screwed up setup for the nonhostile targets... all seem like things which deserve a better design. Which I've been working on, here and there. But from experience with an Intimidate-focused character in actual play, I'm designing it with an eye to baselining it about where it is now.

(A funny story about the nonhostile targets... our most recent battle with that character was one where some dwarves and an elemental were fighting against some kobolds and a white dragon. We'd had not-adversarial discussions with both groups, and were basically being presented by our GM with the challenge: "Pick one side, or the other... or decide to take them both out (which we did)... but you can't stay neutral." It was a cool setup. But the Inimidate rules kicked in at that point... by the time we'd established the full situation, some of both sides had become bloodied due to the skirmishing. Yet they both trusted me, still. So... no -10 for being hostile. "What are you people doing? Throw down your swords!" ... dice hit the table, and due to pure dice luck all three bloodied kobolds hear it and freak out, while both bloodied dwarves shoot me an irritated glance and go back to killing kobolds. Powerful? Maybe. Dumb (the not-hostile-therefore-easier part)? Yes. But nonetheless memorable.)

To keep it simple, I think the binary nature is actually the last thing I'd fix. But ditch the "-10 for hostile" thing. Call that -10 for standard monsters; make it -12 for elites and -15 for solos. Minions are "bloodied" when they're down to half the original batch of minions; against minions it's -7. The -5 for no shared language stands.

Typical situational modifiers (+2 to -2) include if there's a surviving monster with the "Leader" subrole and comparable level to the target, or if more than half of the enemy are already down or fled (prorated by XP value, as roughly eyeballed by the DM), or if the encounter is Easy (level N-1 to N) or Hard (level N+3 or above). Even if the DM feels "no way, he really wouldn't back down" he should restrict himself to using the -2 situational modifier in most circumstances; remember that if the PC has a decent chance of this then they're almost certainly running some kind of supernatural assistance to their fearsomeness.

Oh, and... I also use it against my PCs. If they RP it well, either dropping weapons and trying to surrender or else fleeing without regard for tactics, then I'll usually let them come back in after a round or two. If they don't play it out, then the rule stands. I won't use it in situations where it would totally kill their fun, and in general the fun-killing is quite counterbalanced by the fun of playing a different set of actions in combat (fleeing isn't normally part of their repertoire), aided by DM roleplaying of the monsters doing the intimidating.

------------

However...

In no wise should you ever present your DM with a build and say "this is how it works, period." The fact that you can even consider making that comment would cause me as a DM to disqualify the build on the spot. Something like "it feels like a reasonable build, given that it's normally out of the question for most characters to pull off, and here are some intelligently written forum comments supporting my position"... that, absolutely. I'd be happy to listen to. So just watch your approach to your DM, dude - it sounds like mostly you know that, but just in case you missed it, that was a big red warning flag you threw up earlier.

And mention to him that there's nothing in the rules saying he can't use it on PCs, either... and that at least one poster has done so, to fun effect. It's not as invasive of player autonomy as the knee-jerk reaction suggests, it's actually rather fun.
 

You don't just say "well, the DC is 45 because I said so". That's horrible, awful DMing.
...
You don't suddenly change someone's AC just because you discover the fighter has +4 more attack bonus than you thought, so anybody worth salt isn't going to do it for a skill check.

No, but don't forget about circumstance bonuses and penalties. The DM can certainly adjust someone's AC due to unusual circumstances, such as an odd angle of attack, strong winds blowing your way, or maybe the enemy just Intimidated you and you are quaking a little. ;} Similarly, interaction skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate) are extremely sensitive to circumstance bonuses and penalties. There may be circumstances influencing the enemy's morale. He may have an especially high opinion of himself, or he might notice that his forces outnumber yours, or maybe your means of Intimidation is to say, "uh, please surrender?" Conversely, if the enemy is the last one standing, and the rogue is flanking him with a readied action, the DC should be lower.

Personally, I feel there are a lot of role-playing issues with capturing enemy combatants, which can bog the game down. I would discuss those with your group and DM and make sure that it isn't going to disrupt the game. If you guys are OK with managing captives and spending a lot of time interrogating them etc., then I think the Intimidation trick can be balanced.

-- 77IM
 

IMO the way that bit about the Intimidate skill is worded indicates that is a potential use under some circumstances, not a hard and fast 'you can always try this' rule.

If it was a specific defined use of the Intimidate skill, usable on any bloodied creature, it would be broken out in the skill description much like opening a lock or jumping, I think.

Vaguely disloyal mercenary/lackey? Sure, I'd let a player try. Ultimate bad guy explicitly described in a module as fighting to the death? Sorry, no dice.
 

As per the rules of the game, intimidation could be widely and easily abused if the player choose to do so. I think there should be a little more to it rather than immediate surrender as been suggested above

This simply carries over from 3rd editions diplomatic character who could max checks in order to get an unlimited amount of fanatical followers doing their bidding so long as they aren't mindless.

Players are allowed to do it and the rules allow for it...however, overusing such things would quickly take a lot of fun out of the game (for most people). Which is why people are inclined to try and 'houserule' it.
 

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