D&D 5E Invsibility vs Cloak of Elvenkind

And as [MENTION=61026]tuxgeo[/MENTION] cited, anybody trying to spot you when you are hidden and invisible automatically fails their Perception check.
What was cited was a conditional automatic failure, not the unconditional automatic failure that your phrasing that I quoted earlier stated.

And, again, my earlier point was meant to be one about the results of a particular sort of approach to game rules (trying to apply them like the laws of physics apply to the real world, and that basically never ending well), not how I think anyone should actually choose to interpret a particular game rule.
 

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The cloak of elvenkind gives the effect that "Wisdom (Perception) checks made to see you have disadvantage, and you have advantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks made to hide, as the cloak's color shifts to camouflage you."

Yet, as far as I can tell, being completely invisible does NOT provide advantage on checks made to hide.

How does it make sense that camouflage makes it easier for you to hide, but being completely invisible does not?

I think the answer lies hidden in plain sight right there, bolded. Wisdom checks made to see you have disadvantage if you are wearing the cloak. Attempts to see you fail automatically if you are invisible. Neither case covers the entirety of hiding, though. You may be giving away your position some other way, by making noise, for instance. Neither the cloak nor being invisible will do you any good if somebody is just trying to listen to your moving.
 

But in certain circumstances, a cloak of elvenkind will make it easier to hide than invisibility will. I can't explain that. Why wouldn't invisibility also grant you an advantage?
Invisibility gives you the ability to Hide in what would normally be plain sight the way I understand it. Hiding would otherwise require some sort of cover that allows you to hide which is not always available depending on the current terrain/circumstances.
 

That's not what the rule book says. The rule book says being invisible means you can always "try to hide", not that you are without need to try or that your tries don't normally involve a Dexterity (Stealth) check.

That is true. The rule does say you can always try to hide while invisible. If an invisible rogue were rubbing at someone and shouting at their face, I wouldn't bother to let the rogue roll the stealth check, though, even if the rules clearly state, as they do, that the rogue can. I would just tell the player the attempt failed.

By reading the hiding rules it also seems to imply that it is not possible to try to hide when there is no cover available and the area is clearly lit. No sneaking past a guard in a corridor by trying to move past his back, as there is no rules for facing, etc. I rule over these limitations and allow the PCs to do whatever makes sense.



One of my players, after finding an elven royal hunting regalia, that consisted of, among other items, the cloak and boots of elvenkind, read the rules for both and asked me right away why would he ever bother to wear the boots, as the rules part of the description of the cloak would generously give advantage on all stealth checks. I told him I would not run it exactly that way. Instead, I would do what seemed to me the intent of that line, that was to let the cloak give advantages on stealth tests related to sight, the same way the cloak would impose disadvantage on perception tests related to sight. I is definitely not what is written there, I cannot and will not dispute it. But it is one (not necessarily the only) logical way to apply the rules, that clearly solves any kind of otherwise unexpected interactions.

Tests related to sight? Cloak gives disadv. to the observer and adv. to the user. Invisibility makes attempts to see straightforward fail.
Tests related to listening? Cloak and invisibility don't help. The boots give advantage.

How to put all this together? Assessing the situation. Sneaking past a guard in a silent dungeon? The guard perception will be based on whichever is better for him, between sight and hearing (assuming the sneaking PC is not stinking or bumping at the guard). So invisibility rules out sight, but hearing is unaffected. Cloak gives advantage against sight, but hearing again is unaffected. Boots give advantage against hearing, but now sight is unhampered. Cloak + boots or invisibility + boots will therefore result in advantage for the sneaking side, as the guard cannot rely on any unhampered sense. I tend to consider, for humans specially, sight as the more reliable sense. If the sneaking character was too far away (for instance trying to sneak over a field), or the room was noisy, I would rule that were the guard to rely on hearing, he would have automatic disadvantage regardless of sneaking PC magical item worn, or even fail the test straight away (I don't think a human can listen to a cat walking 100 m away. A dog might, though).

All in all, the above might seem long and complicated, but it really isn't. I can make all the above assessment instinctively during play. It could be ruled differently. I could allow the cloak magic to actually enhance all the potential sneaking talent of a PC, not just camouflage it. This would be surely closer to the letter of the rule, but some would, as I did, find it farther from the heart of it. I didn't want the "stronger" interpretation because I find it cool that the cloak and boots benefit of working together, allowing the PC to be better at sneaking on broader circumstances, but without resulting in number inflation. Invisibility, according to my rulings is simply better than the cloak, but looking on the magic items list, the invisibility ones are rarer and more limited in use, so I think the ruling is fair.
 



IMC, invisibility magic is not so common that creatures would come to that conclusion. If creatures hear a sound in the forest without an obvious source, they react much as you or I would if we heard a sound in the forest without an obvious source: if they're on guard or otherwise suspicious, they'll certainly put their guard up, but the most reasonable conclusion for them to ultimately come to is that it's a squirrel somewhere their eye missed. Because the last hundred times they heard something like that, it was. (Seriously, how endemic do cloaks of invisibility have to be for a guard to think, "Oh no! Invisible creature!" every time they hear rustling leaves?)

IMC, if an invisible creature makes only a noise that can be mistaken for a squirrel rustling leaves, that's an example of success on a Stealth check, not failure.
 

IMC, if an invisible creature makes only a noise that can be mistaken for a squirrel rustling leaves, that's an example of success on a Stealth check, not failure.
So the guard is alerted even on a success? What does the player have to do to make no noticeable sound at all?
 


I think the answer lies hidden in plain sight right there, bolded. Wisdom checks made to see you have disadvantage if you are wearing the cloak. Attempts to see you fail automatically if you are invisible. Neither case covers the entirety of hiding, though. You may be giving away your position some other way, by making noise, for instance. Neither the cloak nor being invisible will do you any good if somebody is just trying to listen to your moving.
So normally, it's impossible to hide in combat, because during combat everyone can always see you unless you're invisible. If you're invisible, then you can try to hide, and you can't be seen (because you're invisible), so your stealth check only determines how much noise you make.

Since detecting someone who is invisible is not a check to see them, the cloak wouldn't impose disadvantage to that. Since a stealth check to move silently is not a check to hide, the cloak wouldn't give you advantage on that. (Granted, this relies on interpreting the word "hide" using natural language rather than as game jargon, but it seems like the only consistent interpretation here.) This agrees with the common sense ruling, that camouflage does nothing for you while you're invisible.

And if you follow that chain of logic, then the cloak basically does nothing in combat, but might prevent you from being detected by an unengaged orc scout or guard while you're trying to sneak into Mordor. To contrast, the boots would help you significantly while you're invisible and trying to hide.

This all comes down to a limitation of the system, in its attempt to find a place for its many different magical items and effects, while the underlying mechanics have been simplified to the point where that distinction is no longer apparent.
 
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