Radiating Gnome
Adventurer
Yes, I'm gratified and frankly relieved that we are split on this. Extra tension? that's a bonus.
IRON DM 2021 Tournament
el-remmen
Moderator Emeritus
Honestly, given my woes writing my entry and its obvious weaknesses, and despite my coming around to actually quite liking it, once I read Wicht's entry, I was like, "If I get at least one judgement in my favor against that I will be satisfied." Having gotten that one judgement and reading how close it was for Iron Sky (who has a weird obsession with commas), I am satisfied. I would still like to win, of course but Wicht's entry really is fantastic and seems hecka fun."
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Iron Sky
Procedurally Generated
Rune
Once A Fool
Judgement for Round 2, Match 1: Wicht vs el-remmen
These are both big adventures. And not just because of the giants and behemoths. The scope of both of these adventures is very ambitious. Moreso in el-remmen’s “Don’t Have a Cow, Man?” (“Cow”) than in Wicht’s Diplomacy’s Cold Crown (“Crown”). As one would expect from a mini-campaign, I suppose. Even so, there is at least as much going on in “Crown”, despite it’s adventure-scale format.
Big Adventure, Small Campaign
Big Adventure, Small Ripples
Ingredients
I really hope I’m not the tie-breaker
These are both big adventures. And not just because of the giants and behemoths. The scope of both of these adventures is very ambitious. Moreso in el-remmen’s “Don’t Have a Cow, Man?” (“Cow”) than in Wicht’s Diplomacy’s Cold Crown (“Crown”). As one would expect from a mini-campaign, I suppose. Even so, there is at least as much going on in “Crown”, despite it’s adventure-scale format.
Big Adventure, Small Campaign
But what, exactly, does “Cow” mean by calling itself a mini-campaign, anyway? As things stand at the start, the time-pressure is already on; if the players don’t change things within the next day, consequences will be dire. Perhaps this is meant to act as the seed to a campaign that will play out based on the consequences of the PCs choices? Perhaps it is but an adventure within a setting meant to be a campaign? Like I said: ambitious.
As is my wont, I’m going to start with hooks and stakes, but these are tied in so tightly with their adventures that I’m going to need to look at each independently.
First, “Cow”. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a campaign begin in medias res. This is an interesting approach, as it immediately puts the PCs into the midst of the social conflict that is the framework for this campaign. This is good. The lack of context that this creates can easily be filled in and all is well.
The stakes of the conflict are also tied in with that introduction, although the PCs aren’t likely to know it immediately. So far, good.
The entry is set up to be very open in allowing the PCs to follow their own goals and approaches to achieving them, despite the preordained origin of their involvement in events. This is also good.
And the setting itself is so very rich. The caste-struggles that define it are manifest not only throughout the background, but also in the very systems of control that the PCs will interact with. All very good stuff.
But about that background…
A significant chunk of this entry is devoted to explaining it. And the players are going to have to know all of it to really get a sense of things. Or, at the very least, every time they want to do something that the elitist’s elitist gods have arbitrarily decreed is against the rules, someone is going to have to appear to inform them why they can’t or (shouldn’t). That is a potential speed-bump. Or, more likely, a series of them.
That’s a challenge, but it’s not insurmountable. What might be insurmountable would be the part that happens first: getting players to buy into a whole campaign played with underwhelming characters. It looks like it would be a great experience to my DM-eyes, but I sure don’t know how I’d sell it.
As is my wont, I’m going to start with hooks and stakes, but these are tied in so tightly with their adventures that I’m going to need to look at each independently.
First, “Cow”. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a campaign begin in medias res. This is an interesting approach, as it immediately puts the PCs into the midst of the social conflict that is the framework for this campaign. This is good. The lack of context that this creates can easily be filled in and all is well.
The stakes of the conflict are also tied in with that introduction, although the PCs aren’t likely to know it immediately. So far, good.
The entry is set up to be very open in allowing the PCs to follow their own goals and approaches to achieving them, despite the preordained origin of their involvement in events. This is also good.
And the setting itself is so very rich. The caste-struggles that define it are manifest not only throughout the background, but also in the very systems of control that the PCs will interact with. All very good stuff.
But about that background…
A significant chunk of this entry is devoted to explaining it. And the players are going to have to know all of it to really get a sense of things. Or, at the very least, every time they want to do something that the elitist’s elitist gods have arbitrarily decreed is against the rules, someone is going to have to appear to inform them why they can’t or (shouldn’t). That is a potential speed-bump. Or, more likely, a series of them.
That’s a challenge, but it’s not insurmountable. What might be insurmountable would be the part that happens first: getting players to buy into a whole campaign played with underwhelming characters. It looks like it would be a great experience to my DM-eyes, but I sure don’t know how I’d sell it.
Big Adventure, Small Ripples
”Crown” gives us a pretty specific hook, too, but the trappings are generic enough to work with pretty much any setting that hasn’t deliberately been designed to avoid fantasy tropes.
Once inside the adventure, we get a dense web of NPCs and factions that form an interconnected series of complications and relationships. The PCs are turned loose into this precarious dynamic and must navigate various NPC shenanigans while furthering their own goals in whatever ways they see fit.
The stakes are clear right from the hook: war, peace, or something in between. The mechanics for achieving those stakes are clean, although it might help to have some guidance on how many diplomacy points could potentially be earned (or lost) per NPC and/or faction.
What really makes the structure of this adventure stand out, though, is the intricacy with which the PCs developing relationships and actions will affect all of the others. It’s complex, but cleanly presented.
I do wonder one thing, however. If Isholter enters the race on the last day, surely it’s evident to everybody that he can’t get enough points to win. It should be obvious he has an ulterior motive. Are the spectators hoping to see a fight, or what?
Once inside the adventure, we get a dense web of NPCs and factions that form an interconnected series of complications and relationships. The PCs are turned loose into this precarious dynamic and must navigate various NPC shenanigans while furthering their own goals in whatever ways they see fit.
The stakes are clear right from the hook: war, peace, or something in between. The mechanics for achieving those stakes are clean, although it might help to have some guidance on how many diplomacy points could potentially be earned (or lost) per NPC and/or faction.
What really makes the structure of this adventure stand out, though, is the intricacy with which the PCs developing relationships and actions will affect all of the others. It’s complex, but cleanly presented.
I do wonder one thing, however. If Isholter enters the race on the last day, surely it’s evident to everybody that he can’t get enough points to win. It should be obvious he has an ulterior motive. Are the spectators hoping to see a fight, or what?
Ingredients
Slippery Slope is a tricky one. It has the potential to be an interesting thematic ingredient, or, most likely, an action set-piece.
We definitely get the set-piece in “Crown”. It certainly makes sense within the context of the adventure and it also certainly looks fun.
“Cow” provides us a slippery slope in the broadest sense: the actions of the PCs will lead to bad consequences. I suppose this could be part of a theme, but it’s certainly not the theme of moral argument that the ingredient would suggest, because the actual choice doesn’t matter much. They all lead to bad things happening (although, option 3 actually does presumably lead to future moral degradation).
But it’s not quite nihilism, either, because it isn’t necessarily entirely bad? I don’t know. Maybe the theme is: Everything sucks when the gods are active — and suck.
If we didn’t have anything else, I think this would be better than the slope in “Crown”.
But “Crown” has more to give us here. It provides us at least one moral slope for the PCs to slip down in the form of betting (and their potential to influence related events after). In addition, in the more general sense, the interconnectedness of each of the NPCs and complications in this adventure are such that the entire structure is a series of PCs’ decisions that will necessarily influence each of their future ones. When your ingredient provides the framework for the entire adventure, you know you’ve nailed it.
After that, things swing toward “Cow” a little bit. “Crown” has a couple of Morale Checks that come in the form of potential outcomes to the PCs’ relationship with Koltabl and with the court. Both depend on removing Hirokol’s influence over his debtors. It’s a good element in the adventure, but I’m not sure it fits the ingredient entirely well, especially the “check” part, since it seems automatic if conditions are met.
Meanwhile, “Cow” gives us some runestones that serve as checks in the sense that they are redeemable for money, and also in that the PCs can target them to check the morale of their recipients (as in stop it from spreading) by stealing them. What really works here is that this particular ingredient says a lot about the social structure of the setting simply by existing as a system of control. The ruling class uses these “rewards” as a means of making the oppressed accept and even desire the oppression. It’s disturbing, but entirely believable. It’s also kind of fun that this option is a perversion of the Robin Hood thing: Steal from the poor to stick it to the rich.
The Limbless Beasts of “Crown” work within the adventure slightly better than in “Cow”(in that they fit the context very well and also have a mechanical synergy with the frost giants (who are immune to cold) that the PCs probably won’t have.
The gods-punished dragon works, too (and it’s nice to see the possibility of wrecking things by healing its wings). I do wonder if this dragon is also a manifestation of the favor of the gods (like the aurochs) and, if so, could it likewise be vanished?
At any rate, the fact that this ingredient is singular counts for something. In the end, I find both entries about even on this one.
“Crown” is less impressive with it’s Heavy Crown. It’s role is as a Macguffin within the adventure, which inherently means it could take any form. It’s role plays a big part in complicating the PCs’ lives, to be sure (especially if it happens before the worm goes missing), but it could be anything. As an aside, why is it fiery? Is it meant to be uncomfortable for frost giants? That’s an extra kind of heaviness, I suppose.
“Cow” has a heavy crown that actually makes the PCs using it fatigued (especially given how weak they are). It actually matters that it is a crown (since it controls the kaiju). It is strongly connected to the morally-degrading slippery-slope path and the practical consequences of the PCs being subpar heroes. This is superior.
Speaking of Subpar Hero, “Cow” sets this up before the adventure even begins. Dodging the potential buy-in difficulties I mentioned earlier, this is a very clever way to make sure the ingredient is always relevant.
“Crown” has a champion who is not a hero, but definitely does (intentionally) perform below expectations. He’s a very good character and an excellent portion of the adventure, but he’s not that great as an ingredient. But he is singular, so that counts for something.
The Vanished Behemoth that is Koltabl’s frost worm in “Crown” is a good implementation, however. The tie-ins with the other complications are delicious (the stolen crown and the PCs’ potential bets against Kiltabl, in particular).
But this is only a part of the adventure, and “Cow” managed to make the absence of it’s behemoth loom over the entirety — even to the point of embodying the stakes of the scenario.
And the same is true of Tomorrow’s Match. The time-pressure is important to both entries, but it’s establishment at the very start of “Cow” makes it more integral to the whole. As with the vanished behemoth, it is ever-present.
Ironically, the strength of this ingredient might be a structural weakness for the adventure/campaign; a single day just doesn’t seem like enough time to do all of the things that this scenario promises. Be that as it may, however, it is a strong ingredient.
So, that’s one excellently used ingredient in “Crown” over a good one in “Cow”, one tie between two pretty good ingredient usages, and five very good ingredients in “Cow” over four slightly-less-very good ingredients in “Crown”. And one that is replaceable.
We definitely get the set-piece in “Crown”. It certainly makes sense within the context of the adventure and it also certainly looks fun.
“Cow” provides us a slippery slope in the broadest sense: the actions of the PCs will lead to bad consequences. I suppose this could be part of a theme, but it’s certainly not the theme of moral argument that the ingredient would suggest, because the actual choice doesn’t matter much. They all lead to bad things happening (although, option 3 actually does presumably lead to future moral degradation).
But it’s not quite nihilism, either, because it isn’t necessarily entirely bad? I don’t know. Maybe the theme is: Everything sucks when the gods are active — and suck.
If we didn’t have anything else, I think this would be better than the slope in “Crown”.
But “Crown” has more to give us here. It provides us at least one moral slope for the PCs to slip down in the form of betting (and their potential to influence related events after). In addition, in the more general sense, the interconnectedness of each of the NPCs and complications in this adventure are such that the entire structure is a series of PCs’ decisions that will necessarily influence each of their future ones. When your ingredient provides the framework for the entire adventure, you know you’ve nailed it.
After that, things swing toward “Cow” a little bit. “Crown” has a couple of Morale Checks that come in the form of potential outcomes to the PCs’ relationship with Koltabl and with the court. Both depend on removing Hirokol’s influence over his debtors. It’s a good element in the adventure, but I’m not sure it fits the ingredient entirely well, especially the “check” part, since it seems automatic if conditions are met.
Meanwhile, “Cow” gives us some runestones that serve as checks in the sense that they are redeemable for money, and also in that the PCs can target them to check the morale of their recipients (as in stop it from spreading) by stealing them. What really works here is that this particular ingredient says a lot about the social structure of the setting simply by existing as a system of control. The ruling class uses these “rewards” as a means of making the oppressed accept and even desire the oppression. It’s disturbing, but entirely believable. It’s also kind of fun that this option is a perversion of the Robin Hood thing: Steal from the poor to stick it to the rich.
The Limbless Beasts of “Crown” work within the adventure slightly better than in “Cow”(in that they fit the context very well and also have a mechanical synergy with the frost giants (who are immune to cold) that the PCs probably won’t have.
The gods-punished dragon works, too (and it’s nice to see the possibility of wrecking things by healing its wings). I do wonder if this dragon is also a manifestation of the favor of the gods (like the aurochs) and, if so, could it likewise be vanished?
At any rate, the fact that this ingredient is singular counts for something. In the end, I find both entries about even on this one.
“Crown” is less impressive with it’s Heavy Crown. It’s role is as a Macguffin within the adventure, which inherently means it could take any form. It’s role plays a big part in complicating the PCs’ lives, to be sure (especially if it happens before the worm goes missing), but it could be anything. As an aside, why is it fiery? Is it meant to be uncomfortable for frost giants? That’s an extra kind of heaviness, I suppose.
“Cow” has a heavy crown that actually makes the PCs using it fatigued (especially given how weak they are). It actually matters that it is a crown (since it controls the kaiju). It is strongly connected to the morally-degrading slippery-slope path and the practical consequences of the PCs being subpar heroes. This is superior.
Speaking of Subpar Hero, “Cow” sets this up before the adventure even begins. Dodging the potential buy-in difficulties I mentioned earlier, this is a very clever way to make sure the ingredient is always relevant.
“Crown” has a champion who is not a hero, but definitely does (intentionally) perform below expectations. He’s a very good character and an excellent portion of the adventure, but he’s not that great as an ingredient. But he is singular, so that counts for something.
The Vanished Behemoth that is Koltabl’s frost worm in “Crown” is a good implementation, however. The tie-ins with the other complications are delicious (the stolen crown and the PCs’ potential bets against Kiltabl, in particular).
But this is only a part of the adventure, and “Cow” managed to make the absence of it’s behemoth loom over the entirety — even to the point of embodying the stakes of the scenario.
And the same is true of Tomorrow’s Match. The time-pressure is important to both entries, but it’s establishment at the very start of “Cow” makes it more integral to the whole. As with the vanished behemoth, it is ever-present.
Ironically, the strength of this ingredient might be a structural weakness for the adventure/campaign; a single day just doesn’t seem like enough time to do all of the things that this scenario promises. Be that as it may, however, it is a strong ingredient.
So, that’s one excellently used ingredient in “Crown” over a good one in “Cow”, one tie between two pretty good ingredient usages, and five very good ingredients in “Cow” over four slightly-less-very good ingredients in “Crown”. And one that is replaceable.
I really hope I’m not the tie-breaker
I thought I knew which way this was going when I started writing.
Wicht’s entry is extraordinary. The adventure is elegant and, frankly, essentially flawless. The ingredients are, on the whole, strong. And one of them exemplifies everything I look for in an IRON DM ingredient’s implementation.
But el-remmen’s entry is also very strong. The adventure/campaign is not flawless, but is still very good and the slight edges on those ingredients really add up.
Do they add up enough? I guess I have to figure out how much better the adventure in “Crown” is vs. how much better the ingredients are in “Cow”.
…I’ve done some soul-searching and I’m going to have to side with excellence. “Cow” never fails to be good, but I don’t think it’s numerous slightly-better ingredients outweigh the excellence of the adventure presented in “Crown”, given that only one of its ingredients is actually not very good and another one is exceptionally excellent.
This is a tough call. Part of me really hopes I’m the minority vote. But my vote is for Wicht in this one.
…Alas, I am not fated to vote in irrelevance. @el-remmen, no one knows better than you what this is all about and your skills do not disappoint. I’d be equally happy to see further entries from you or to see you get back into the judge’s saddle again. It has been a pleasure.
For now, however, @Wicht advances to the championship round!
Wicht’s entry is extraordinary. The adventure is elegant and, frankly, essentially flawless. The ingredients are, on the whole, strong. And one of them exemplifies everything I look for in an IRON DM ingredient’s implementation.
But el-remmen’s entry is also very strong. The adventure/campaign is not flawless, but is still very good and the slight edges on those ingredients really add up.
Do they add up enough? I guess I have to figure out how much better the adventure in “Crown” is vs. how much better the ingredients are in “Cow”.
…I’ve done some soul-searching and I’m going to have to side with excellence. “Cow” never fails to be good, but I don’t think it’s numerous slightly-better ingredients outweigh the excellence of the adventure presented in “Crown”, given that only one of its ingredients is actually not very good and another one is exceptionally excellent.
This is a tough call. Part of me really hopes I’m the minority vote. But my vote is for Wicht in this one.
…Alas, I am not fated to vote in irrelevance. @el-remmen, no one knows better than you what this is all about and your skills do not disappoint. I’d be equally happy to see further entries from you or to see you get back into the judge’s saddle again. It has been a pleasure.
For now, however, @Wicht advances to the championship round!
Wicht
Hero
LOL. (literally)
I don't think that I have ever seen a round where two out of the three judges are so conflicted. RG votes for El-remmen's entry but voices a desire to be in the minority. Rune votes for mine but also voices a desire to be in the minority. I am glad the contest was that close. Even though Nemm had trouble with his, he did pretty well, I would say.
I am not sure I have ever seen another entry do quite as well on selling itself on pure world-building as "Cow." It made me think of The Reckoner series (norms vs. evil supes) and Attack on Titan both, and as Iron Sky said, while the adventure itself was admittedly a bit weak, the setting and set-up makes one want to write. I totally get that and agree. I wouldn't mind seeing an actual campaign in a world like that and I suspect if the adventure had been a bit more linear actually, mine wouldn't have won.
When I said these ingredients were deceptively simple, I was being serious. They all were kind of obvious, but not necessarily in a way that was easy to make the ingredients integral to the adventure. Why a limbless beast? Why a crown. A helm or a throne might work just as well in most cases. A vanished behemoth likewise is hard to incorporate as integral because its likely not actually there, and thus becomes a macguffin, which in most cases is pretty replaceable. So they were a challenge to try and work in together in a way that held together and where they could not be replaced with something else. And then the 1500 word limit made it even more tricky, naturally.
As far as the values of the DPs, for each thing, I simply did not have room to include them though I was thinking minor events would probably be 1 or 2 and more major events 4 or 5. Winning the whole race, without killing the jarls wizard, might have been 8. This is also the reason that I did not put titles before each name, such as Frost-wizard Isholter. My original draft did that and I simply ran out of words before I could include everything I wanted including the final fight and the bit with the crown. Going back to the DPs, I kept the point notation in because it conveyed the idea that the final outcome could fall somewhere on a scale of good to bad, which I thought was a good idea.
I don't disagree with much of the ingredient discussion, but I will say that I had a second use of heavy crown that might have got overlooked, and that was the responsibility of the Jarl to lead his people well, even when his people might not all want those things that would end up being for their good. It was subtle, but I was sorta hoping it would get more notice to make up for some of the weakness with the other. As for the fiery crown with frost giants, the fire of a flaming weapon does not harm the bearer, and I thought a big old stone crown you could hurl at your enemies would be the sort of traveling trophy that frost giants might like for their tournaments.
Also, I agree with RG that the kidnapping plot was a foolish sort of ploy, that could have been done better, but that was actually intended, as the champion was not supposed to necessarily be the brightest of giants.
Also, also, it struck me this afternoon that plot wise it would work pretty well to have the champions son be a second sub-par hero, by giving him an opportunity to take his father's place and win some glory in the games for the Jarl and for the hand of his princess. If I was going to develop the scenario further, I would probably play with that aspect a bit.
I don't think that I have ever seen a round where two out of the three judges are so conflicted. RG votes for El-remmen's entry but voices a desire to be in the minority. Rune votes for mine but also voices a desire to be in the minority. I am glad the contest was that close. Even though Nemm had trouble with his, he did pretty well, I would say.
I am not sure I have ever seen another entry do quite as well on selling itself on pure world-building as "Cow." It made me think of The Reckoner series (norms vs. evil supes) and Attack on Titan both, and as Iron Sky said, while the adventure itself was admittedly a bit weak, the setting and set-up makes one want to write. I totally get that and agree. I wouldn't mind seeing an actual campaign in a world like that and I suspect if the adventure had been a bit more linear actually, mine wouldn't have won.
When I said these ingredients were deceptively simple, I was being serious. They all were kind of obvious, but not necessarily in a way that was easy to make the ingredients integral to the adventure. Why a limbless beast? Why a crown. A helm or a throne might work just as well in most cases. A vanished behemoth likewise is hard to incorporate as integral because its likely not actually there, and thus becomes a macguffin, which in most cases is pretty replaceable. So they were a challenge to try and work in together in a way that held together and where they could not be replaced with something else. And then the 1500 word limit made it even more tricky, naturally.
As far as the values of the DPs, for each thing, I simply did not have room to include them though I was thinking minor events would probably be 1 or 2 and more major events 4 or 5. Winning the whole race, without killing the jarls wizard, might have been 8. This is also the reason that I did not put titles before each name, such as Frost-wizard Isholter. My original draft did that and I simply ran out of words before I could include everything I wanted including the final fight and the bit with the crown. Going back to the DPs, I kept the point notation in because it conveyed the idea that the final outcome could fall somewhere on a scale of good to bad, which I thought was a good idea.
I don't disagree with much of the ingredient discussion, but I will say that I had a second use of heavy crown that might have got overlooked, and that was the responsibility of the Jarl to lead his people well, even when his people might not all want those things that would end up being for their good. It was subtle, but I was sorta hoping it would get more notice to make up for some of the weakness with the other. As for the fiery crown with frost giants, the fire of a flaming weapon does not harm the bearer, and I thought a big old stone crown you could hurl at your enemies would be the sort of traveling trophy that frost giants might like for their tournaments.
Also, I agree with RG that the kidnapping plot was a foolish sort of ploy, that could have been done better, but that was actually intended, as the champion was not supposed to necessarily be the brightest of giants.
Also, also, it struck me this afternoon that plot wise it would work pretty well to have the champions son be a second sub-par hero, by giving him an opportunity to take his father's place and win some glory in the games for the Jarl and for the hand of his princess. If I was going to develop the scenario further, I would probably play with that aspect a bit.
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Rune
Once A Fool
That would have been better. Unfortunately, its subtlety could not compete with the distraction of the Macguffin.
Rune
Once A Fool
Funny thing, @Iron Sky.
I was getting serious Dark Sun vibes from @el-remmen ‘s entry, too. The old Dark Sun, before the novels ruined it by introducing hope into the setting.
I was getting serious Dark Sun vibes from @el-remmen ‘s entry, too. The old Dark Sun, before the novels ruined it by introducing hope into the setting.
