[IRON DM] Winter '04 Tournament (IRON DM ANNOUNCED!)
- Thread starter el-remmen
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el-remmen
Moderator Emeritus
Judgement: Semi-Final Round - Second Match-Up: Enkhidu vs. Cstyle
Aw snap! They went all Book of Erotic Fantasy on me. . . except good. . . especially Enkhidu. . . No, not especially good (though as usual Enkhidu’s entry did come with his slightly above adequate skill I have come to expect of him), but especially naughty.
But perhaps I am being too mean calling Enkhidu’s work “just slightly above adequate”. . .Let’s get back to it and we’ll see the truth of the matter ourselves.
Cstyle’s Entry: Good ole Mr. C. took a route few have ever taken in IRON DM competitions and one I think only the legendary Wicht pulled off back in the misty days of the early tournaments that are now long lost; and that is writing an entry as a one-shot with pre-created characters as opposed to something to be slipped into a normal campaign. I have to be honest, right from the beginning that puts him at a disadvantage.
But maybe it’s because I have special love for bugbears I was pulled in right away. While it did give me that “one-shot at a con” feeling the way the scenes jumped from place to place with no real need to worry about the in-between (because it’s only a four hour slot… uh, I mean because it was not important to story), there was something epic about the quest and a nice twist in that they are bad guys looking to stop other bad guys in Hell, and having to visit some other even crazier bad-guys that hate them to get something to defeat the first bad-guys. I think the use of the named Arch-Fiends and Demon-Lords, even if only as the forces behind the plans and counter-plans helped raise interest in the story, even without it being something that effects a long-term character.
So it hops around a bit, but how does he do with the ingredients?
The climax of Cstyle’s entry seemed kind of anti-climactic, which I guess is the downside of using “named” archfiends and such, the expectation for fireworks and mayhem is high, and taken as a one-shot one might hope to play at a Con, you are looking for the big bang - the climax that is do or die and harrowing - but I feel like this entry did not deliver that when it should.
Enkhidu’s Entry: In terms of climax Enkhidu’s entry delivers all night long, baby! Yeah! Yeah! And I am not only talking about the demon orgy, but also the mayhem he successfully describes and makes believable that the PCs would be involved with. It works, not only as a bizarre place and setting for a climactic battle, but in terms of the story he describes the festival’s tenor in such a way that the tension of it was all under-lying all along, waiting for those symbols to burst from its confines into a raucous expression of humanity, which in turn helps to summon the demons. It is all very Joseph Campbell. I love it! But before I go on and on about the end, let’s take a step back to beginning and see if what Enkhidu provided brings us to this glorious climax elegantly.
Enkhidu made the sacred well the center piece of his adventure, but around it he draped such a wonderful tapestry of background, cultural feel and action that with jus the briefest examples he let’s you know what the environment all of this is going on in is like, and what kinds of encounters and exotic locales the DM could use to immerse the PCs in the adventure. It is more of that simulationist interacting with the world stuff that I think all ‘classic’ adventures have.
But could the Al-Quadim sounding names and location make this adventure less useable than any other adventure? I was thinking that as I started digging in, but the answer is no. The great festival could be a medieval faire, it could be some kind of mayday-like celebration or a more renaissance setting could have a Mardi Gras-like gigantic party - and all the trappings which give the adventure such wonderful flavor as is, could be changed with no damage to the core adventure, which is what matters - though ideally the great city in the desert is the best way to go as it does help to gel some of the ingredients together.
The festival itself is also a wonderful hook, and aside from the examples, Enkhidu gave, there could be a ton more, though getting them into the Caliph’s party might be a little more treacherous - but if the party consists of more traditional dwarf-y and elf-y type fantasy character who have traveled there from abroad, they might simply be invited as foreign guests to be shown wonders unrivaled in their “barbaric” lands.
Enkhidu also does a great job of describing his NPCs, from the evil succubi replacements in the harem, to Sack and Govan (the relecutant slavers) to the Caliph himself. All their goals and personalities are adequately detailed to give a DM a feel for how they should be run, and armed with this information once the PCs are "hooked" it is all that is needed in combination with the festival/hunt itself to run the adventure, building up to the insanity that comes at the climax.
But how did Enkhidu do with his ingredients? Masterfully, that's how. . .
Sure there are problems, but making the Sacred Well a well of holy fire was a nice touch, and as I said earlier served wonderfully as the axis the adventure turns on. The frost brand battle axe works because of this, because it serves not only a weapon, but as a ceremonial accroutrement in the festival ceremony. It is very dramatic how it is used to cleave the Bullette Shell apart, which was a wonderful use of the ingredient, fitting the environment of the adventure ("sand sharks", natch), but also linked up to the Hunt - which was a work of genius in terms of ingredient blending. Bravo, Enhkhidu! Of course, the use of the "sand shark" term had the one negative effect of linking the adventure a little too much to the desert environment - but this is not a big deal and easily overlooked, or replaced somehow if ported over to another setting.
I loved Sack and Govan as the reluctant slavers (though one was more reluctant than the other), and like I have said many times I like when an adventure has elements to work into your own campaign world - and their demon-hunting/slaying group is a perfect example. However, I am not sure how well their plan would work realisitically. I don't see how they would get to replace the harem girls without anyone seeing or becoming suspicious - I mean, what do they do with the slaves? And who presents them the second time if they are disguised as them? And why would these new harem girls be invited to be present for the ceremony? It just doesn't work for me. You know what else doesn't work for me? The lockpick pendants. Enkhidu called them "a subtle symbol of their membership" - but they seem anything but subtle - though I like Sack's magical version - but yeah, this was a weak use of aningredient, even if the ideal behind it was clever. No entry is perfect, I guess.
Oh, and speaking of not perfect, another problem is that Sack and Govan's harem caper have little or nothing to do with the PCs - but assuming that they do not know of the succubi's plans and it is just coincidence that they are there hunting at the same time - then I guess it makes sense for them to wait to present their slave-gifts - but if not would they not try to infiltrate earlier to get a chance to actually catch the demons before the do anything?
Of course, I already mentioned the Demon Orgy and how wonderfully twisted it is, and a great climax and also makes the party have to be careful about how they deal with the demons if they hope to not hurt the innocent people turned into raving sex maniacs by the symbols of lust (of course, if any of the PCs are effected, that would be a whole lot of fun - and if two PCs start going at it - well, let's just say I hope people have some mature players - I know it can't be easy role-playing the fall out of your dwarven cleric getting fisted by the female half-orc ranger, or what-have-you.
One thing Enkhidu should have done was include an amount of time the carnal ritual of the succubi takes (and maybe added some details of what it entails (devouring the cut gentitals of the Caliph, rubbing his bloody and feces-filled entrails between their legs, etc. . .)). This way the DM could gauge what the relative difficulty of stopping them in time should be, and how long it takes to get through the writhing humping masses to get to them.
And of course, the one thing that an adventure written for an on-going campaign has over one written as a one-shot, just by virtue of its very nature is the follow-up material that effects the characters and future adventures. The kind of chaos and consequences that would come of Enkhidu's adventure regardless of the PCs' success is just the kind of fun I look for in a campaign.
So I lied when I said "slightly better than adequate" because
Congratulations! The winner moves on the to the double-elimination final round and is guaranteed to get at least 3rd place.
Aw snap! They went all Book of Erotic Fantasy on me. . . except good. . . especially Enkhidu. . . No, not especially good (though as usual Enkhidu’s entry did come with his slightly above adequate skill I have come to expect of him), but especially naughty.
But perhaps I am being too mean calling Enkhidu’s work “just slightly above adequate”. . .Let’s get back to it and we’ll see the truth of the matter ourselves.
Cstyle’s Entry: Good ole Mr. C. took a route few have ever taken in IRON DM competitions and one I think only the legendary Wicht pulled off back in the misty days of the early tournaments that are now long lost; and that is writing an entry as a one-shot with pre-created characters as opposed to something to be slipped into a normal campaign. I have to be honest, right from the beginning that puts him at a disadvantage.
But maybe it’s because I have special love for bugbears I was pulled in right away. While it did give me that “one-shot at a con” feeling the way the scenes jumped from place to place with no real need to worry about the in-between (because it’s only a four hour slot… uh, I mean because it was not important to story), there was something epic about the quest and a nice twist in that they are bad guys looking to stop other bad guys in Hell, and having to visit some other even crazier bad-guys that hate them to get something to defeat the first bad-guys. I think the use of the named Arch-Fiends and Demon-Lords, even if only as the forces behind the plans and counter-plans helped raise interest in the story, even without it being something that effects a long-term character.
So it hops around a bit, but how does he do with the ingredients?
- The Reluctant Slaver - The quasit wasn’t much of a slaver. He did not take, keep or sell slaves, and the Balor was not much of a slave, as he was being punished not forced to do labor for the profit of a master. It was a disappointing use of an ingredient, a better idea might have been the spirit of a slaver condemned to Hell as a guide, someone who in life had been a reluctant slaver because of religious concern and now knowing the infernal truth of being damned…but that’s just an idea, just throwing stuff out there.
- Frost Brand Battle Axe - Now while it may be useful in the final battle against the hellfire elementals, there is nothing in the adventure itself that would lead the characters to try to get the axe, and the axe itself is merely useful and convenient, it does not serve a special purpose. Again, poor ingredient use, and a failed chance to tie it deeper into the story.
- Lock Picks: What is it about me that I don’t like ambiguous enchanted items? It just seems like an odd thing for some demon informant-traitor to be able or willing to do. I am stumped here about what might have been a better use of the ingredient given the context of the adventure that Cstyle has presented us, but luckily I don’t have to because I am only the judge, and thus can suggest alternatives at a whim; when they serve to make me look smarter than I really am.
- Demon Orgy: “…servicing his large bulbous member” eh? Too bad we did not have this tourney at NKL or the RBC or else you might have gone into all sorts of lurid detail. I could think of about a thousands one disgustly perverse sights to describe here (and maybe in the archived version on my site I’ll add a half-dozen example)- but that is not the point, the point is that while it was a cool place to have the characters meet their informant, it really loses its punch when you realize that it is hard to shock some diabolic bugbear servants of Baalzebul.
- Bullette Shell: Well, I think Mr. C wins the award for most bizarre ingredient ever. Some kind of magic sucking and blowing device? Some kind of weird bellows/vacuum. The crazy thing is that I can picture it, though for the life of me I can’t even begin to think how this idea developed (hint, hint… I want exposition). I have to give him his props just for being out there in his thinking, and it links up well with the Sacred Well ingredient, and seems like it’d be a pain in the ass to use. Good work all around. I like it.
- Sacred Well: This is where the scenario really gets interesting, when the characters get to the prime material plane. While the well by itself is not all that special, the little story and context around it and the heroic characters that are connected to it as the possible adversaries definitely are. I think it’d be great “meta-game fun” to know those who would oppose you if you are found are just versions of the kinds of characters we usually play. Also having infernal beings manipulating a holy font to quench the ambitions of another lord of hell is just wonderful irony, and kind of a great allegory for why evil never triumphs over good. But the really interesting part is how the characters might choose to act in this environment, especially if it means risking drawing the attention of any capital ‘G’ Good powers that might stop their plans to use good to thwart evil so they can do evil. Nice work.
The climax of Cstyle’s entry seemed kind of anti-climactic, which I guess is the downside of using “named” archfiends and such, the expectation for fireworks and mayhem is high, and taken as a one-shot one might hope to play at a Con, you are looking for the big bang - the climax that is do or die and harrowing - but I feel like this entry did not deliver that when it should.
Enkhidu’s Entry: In terms of climax Enkhidu’s entry delivers all night long, baby! Yeah! Yeah! And I am not only talking about the demon orgy, but also the mayhem he successfully describes and makes believable that the PCs would be involved with. It works, not only as a bizarre place and setting for a climactic battle, but in terms of the story he describes the festival’s tenor in such a way that the tension of it was all under-lying all along, waiting for those symbols to burst from its confines into a raucous expression of humanity, which in turn helps to summon the demons. It is all very Joseph Campbell. I love it! But before I go on and on about the end, let’s take a step back to beginning and see if what Enkhidu provided brings us to this glorious climax elegantly.
Enkhidu made the sacred well the center piece of his adventure, but around it he draped such a wonderful tapestry of background, cultural feel and action that with jus the briefest examples he let’s you know what the environment all of this is going on in is like, and what kinds of encounters and exotic locales the DM could use to immerse the PCs in the adventure. It is more of that simulationist interacting with the world stuff that I think all ‘classic’ adventures have.
But could the Al-Quadim sounding names and location make this adventure less useable than any other adventure? I was thinking that as I started digging in, but the answer is no. The great festival could be a medieval faire, it could be some kind of mayday-like celebration or a more renaissance setting could have a Mardi Gras-like gigantic party - and all the trappings which give the adventure such wonderful flavor as is, could be changed with no damage to the core adventure, which is what matters - though ideally the great city in the desert is the best way to go as it does help to gel some of the ingredients together.
The festival itself is also a wonderful hook, and aside from the examples, Enkhidu gave, there could be a ton more, though getting them into the Caliph’s party might be a little more treacherous - but if the party consists of more traditional dwarf-y and elf-y type fantasy character who have traveled there from abroad, they might simply be invited as foreign guests to be shown wonders unrivaled in their “barbaric” lands.
Enkhidu also does a great job of describing his NPCs, from the evil succubi replacements in the harem, to Sack and Govan (the relecutant slavers) to the Caliph himself. All their goals and personalities are adequately detailed to give a DM a feel for how they should be run, and armed with this information once the PCs are "hooked" it is all that is needed in combination with the festival/hunt itself to run the adventure, building up to the insanity that comes at the climax.
But how did Enkhidu do with his ingredients? Masterfully, that's how. . .
Sure there are problems, but making the Sacred Well a well of holy fire was a nice touch, and as I said earlier served wonderfully as the axis the adventure turns on. The frost brand battle axe works because of this, because it serves not only a weapon, but as a ceremonial accroutrement in the festival ceremony. It is very dramatic how it is used to cleave the Bullette Shell apart, which was a wonderful use of the ingredient, fitting the environment of the adventure ("sand sharks", natch), but also linked up to the Hunt - which was a work of genius in terms of ingredient blending. Bravo, Enhkhidu! Of course, the use of the "sand shark" term had the one negative effect of linking the adventure a little too much to the desert environment - but this is not a big deal and easily overlooked, or replaced somehow if ported over to another setting.
I loved Sack and Govan as the reluctant slavers (though one was more reluctant than the other), and like I have said many times I like when an adventure has elements to work into your own campaign world - and their demon-hunting/slaying group is a perfect example. However, I am not sure how well their plan would work realisitically. I don't see how they would get to replace the harem girls without anyone seeing or becoming suspicious - I mean, what do they do with the slaves? And who presents them the second time if they are disguised as them? And why would these new harem girls be invited to be present for the ceremony? It just doesn't work for me. You know what else doesn't work for me? The lockpick pendants. Enkhidu called them "a subtle symbol of their membership" - but they seem anything but subtle - though I like Sack's magical version - but yeah, this was a weak use of aningredient, even if the ideal behind it was clever. No entry is perfect, I guess.
Oh, and speaking of not perfect, another problem is that Sack and Govan's harem caper have little or nothing to do with the PCs - but assuming that they do not know of the succubi's plans and it is just coincidence that they are there hunting at the same time - then I guess it makes sense for them to wait to present their slave-gifts - but if not would they not try to infiltrate earlier to get a chance to actually catch the demons before the do anything?
Of course, I already mentioned the Demon Orgy and how wonderfully twisted it is, and a great climax and also makes the party have to be careful about how they deal with the demons if they hope to not hurt the innocent people turned into raving sex maniacs by the symbols of lust (of course, if any of the PCs are effected, that would be a whole lot of fun - and if two PCs start going at it - well, let's just say I hope people have some mature players - I know it can't be easy role-playing the fall out of your dwarven cleric getting fisted by the female half-orc ranger, or what-have-you.
One thing Enkhidu should have done was include an amount of time the carnal ritual of the succubi takes (and maybe added some details of what it entails (devouring the cut gentitals of the Caliph, rubbing his bloody and feces-filled entrails between their legs, etc. . .)). This way the DM could gauge what the relative difficulty of stopping them in time should be, and how long it takes to get through the writhing humping masses to get to them.
And of course, the one thing that an adventure written for an on-going campaign has over one written as a one-shot, just by virtue of its very nature is the follow-up material that effects the characters and future adventures. The kind of chaos and consequences that would come of Enkhidu's adventure regardless of the PCs' success is just the kind of fun I look for in a campaign.
So I lied when I said "slightly better than adequate" because
ENKHIDU wins! While Cstyle's entry was good enough to win him the majority of first round match-ups and would normally would be good enough to win the second round, Enkhidu just raised the bar to the level I expect to see in the finals - unfortunate for Csytle and perhaps unfortunate for Enkhidu, as it is very possible he will not be able to top himself, or has spent his creative juices in this one amazing entry.
Still, it was good work Cstyle and I hope to see you in a future IRON DM competition.
Still, it was good work Cstyle and I hope to see you in a future IRON DM competition.
Congratulations! The winner moves on the to the double-elimination final round and is guaranteed to get at least 3rd place.
Last edited:
Dave Turner
First Post
Here's a little more explanation and clarification.nemmerle said:
The decision to concede was fueled by my own disappointment in my efforts and the failure to use all the ingredients in a finished entry. I could have (and maybe should have) simply posted the incomplete entry with an explanation. At the time, however, I didn't feel as though there was anything to gain from that.
I certainly don't think that my concession should piss off or annoy Paka. Regardless of whether or not I conceded, my entry was unfinished and didn't make explicit use of a few ingredients. Maybe Paka could have done better than I did in this round, but the more important point is that he didn't do better than I could in the first round. I gave both rounds my best effort and I simply came up short in the second round, as anyone else might. I didn't "drop out" of the contest, I tried and failed. If I believed that my incomplete entry stood a chance of winning, I would have posted it without the initial concession. I didn't think that an incomplete entry, even with some good ingredient use, met the minimun requirements for judgment.
For the record, I didn't start late and run out of time.
Rather, I was too focused on being innovative and refused to let go of certain ideas way past the time when I should have jettisoned them. I should have recognized that while some ideas I had were good takes on the ingredients, I was failing to mesh them together. In Iron DM, the ability to mesh is ultimately what matters and by the time I realized that I personally wasn't going to be able to mesh my ideas in time, it was too late to come up with new ideas (wow, that's a long sentence). I ran out of time, but not because I put it off.Once again, thanks to both of my opponents for the good competition and to nemmerle for running the whole shebang. I'll hopefully take what I've learned from this round of the tournament and apply it to the next. My apologies to those who considered my entry in this semi-final to be anticlimactic (sp???).
nemmerle said:
ain't that the truth!!
nemmerle said:
decent only goes so far. and i will be striving for much better in the future.
Thanks for the opportunity. And for what its worth, i would have loved to see what could have happened had dave finished. i would have had no problem losing to such an entry. Dave, keep it up. Next time its all you!
zen
Dave Turner
First Post
Paka's loss in the first round might have been frustrating because it was so close, but that should have no impact on the perception of the subsequent round.Paka said:
I didn't drop out of the competition. If I had, I would have simply disappeared from the thread rather than post a concession as I did. I posted an incomplete entry that clearly indicates that I was doing anything but "dropping out". Maybe you are operating with a different definition of "dropping out" than I am?
It might be frustrating to see someone who beat you in a previous round falter and lose in subsequent rounds. Sadly, this isn't a unique situation among people who lost in the first round, since three of them will see the person who beat them lose in the semi-final. It's an unavoidable facet of any competition, whether it's Iron DM or the NFL playoffs.
I don't begrudge Paka some frustration or some public venting of such, but don't try to justify it on grounds that simply aren't accurate.
