Iron Heroes threaten my GM style of low magic items...

[Von Ether]

I've got some players who are getting a tad too insistent that I consider using Iron Heroes, saying it will free the "game" from dependence on magic items ... in a campaign where my players complain they don't get enough of what ... you guessed it, magic items.

If I ran DND RAW, this might have some credence, but I use "mission-based" XP instead of encounters, and do a lot of eyeballing on the CR system (which I consider to have less weight once you allow 3rd party products, which I have on a case-by-case basis.) There are two magic items in a group of six 9th level PCs, no TPK yet. We have had people get into single digit hit points near the end of the fight and then they complain my fights aren't tough enough.

I see magic items as another form of tweaking for my campaign. The idea of instilling all those bonuses into innate abilities/tokens for the PCs means I have to run my game more by the rules than I do, when it's not really neccessary for my style.

So from my viewpoint, I'll be taking any promtion of Iron Heroes with a grain of salt from players. It might not be the "game" they're thinking about when they talk about being dependent on magic items.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Of course they're complaining that they don't have enough magical items. They're 9th level characters and only two out of six PCs have a magical item! Now, I'm not saying you should slavishly follow the wealth guidelines, but when you say you are following RAW, I would expect that they would have somewhere around what characters within 2-3 levels are supposed to have. The book does say it expects 9th level characters to have 36,000 gp, you know? Mostly in magical items.

Now, its no wonder they want to run Iron Heroes. They are already playing a low item game, and Iron Heroes would allow you to run a low item game with the same power level as a normal D&D game. Iron Heroes gives PCs a boost of power in exchange for not having magical items, rebalancing them with this in mind.

It isn't about your players wanting magical items. They just want to have the power that is implied by the game, to meet the average of the curve. Iron Heroes will allow them to do this without having to rely on magical items, which they don't have anyway.

 

[Glyfair]

A tricky situation. The campaign seems balanced (or unbalanced in the opposite direction most would assume), but it also doesn't seem to be what the players are looking for. The players aren't dying, are looking for more of a challenge, but want more options and/or power.

The bottom line question is - are the players having fun?

While it's the GMs campaign and he should have the most say in the campaign balance and world, if the players aren't happy then it will soon be a DMs campaign without players (or with less and less players). If the combats are balanced, but 9th level players big battles are with low level monsters (by standard D&D balance), the players might not be happy. They want the challenges that 9th level characters are expecting to face.

If the players aren't enjoying themselves, you really have three choices. Either move somewhat in the direction they want to go, find a new direction that you both like, or else hang it up for a while and let someone else run a more traditional game. The only other option is to continue a game where you are enjoying yourself, but the players aren't, as long as they stick around.

If they are enjoying themselves, you should still consider moving somewhat in the direction they want to go. Clearly they are dissatisfied. You don't have to assume that just because they say it's one thing that changing to that will fix it. However, you should certainly consider changing things to give them something of what they are looking for.

 

[Varianor Abroad]

I kept my D&D game very magic-light. My players complained. They had a hard time of it with some monsters. I realized that the system was meant for them to have the magic. Then I thought more and realized that it wasn't as fun for them. I made up for it. They had more fun and I got to throw tougher stuff at them.

I'm playing an IH armiger right now. In an Arcana Evolved game. I don't have any magic. Just a sword and some armor and some non-magical equipment. I'm kicking butt and loving every minute of it! If you like a game without magic, why not try it out? Your PCs want to have fun.

(In other words, this post second's ThirdWizard's thoughts above. I just feel compelled to post something in my own words. )

 

[Particle_Man]

IH has other stuff (Stunts, Combat Zones, "Cursed" magic items, etc.) that might make the game more enjoyable, anyhow.

 

[Von Ether]

but when you say you are following RAW, I would expect that they would have somewhere around what characters within 2-3 levels are supposed to have. The book does say it expects 9th level characters to have 36,000 gp, you know? Mostly in magical items.

I didn't

If I ran DND RAW, this might have some credence, but I use ... "

During play, they have fun and we haven't had any difficulty yet. But the guys who complain after the fact are my min/maxers. You know guys who petition to get their first levels in barbarian after three levels of playing a city theif.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I'm biased (toward RAW run wealth) because I had a bad time in a low item game before. The campaign itself wasn't bad, but by 8th level, all my fighter had to his name was a +1 sword and a ring of protection +1. It completely threw the CR system out of whack and we would have a hard time with CR 5 opponents. Basically, while the campaign was well constructed, it felt like we weren't getting anywhere in terms of power. Players feel like they should have good odds against an equal CR opponent. When they don't, it hurts morale.

Then, of course, the druid joined the party. Don't get me started on by the book spellcasters mixed in with non-spellcasters who don't have magical items. His summons were more effective than I was. And, he could heal, nuke, and all sorts of other things. I was basically dead weight. And, the DM wondered why I complained. *sigh* It was his first time DMing so it was a learning experience for him, however. No hard feelings. Sometimes its easy to forget what its like to be a Player. I know I can.

By the way, I love Iron Heroes!

 

[helium3]

I'm biased (toward RAW run wealth) because I had a bad time in a low item game before. The campaign itself wasn't bad, but by 8th level, all my fighter had to his name was a +1 sword and a ring of protection +1. It completely threw the CR system out of whack and we would have a hard time with CR 5 opponents. Basically, while the campaign was well constructed, it felt like we weren't getting anywhere in terms of power. Players feel like they should have good odds against an equal CR opponent. When they don't, it hurts morale.

Then, of course, the druid joined the party. Don't get me started on by the book spellcasters mixed in with non-spellcasters who don't have magical items. His summons were more effective than I was. And, he could heal, nuke, and all sorts of other things. I was basically dead weight. And, the DM wondered why I complained. *sigh* It was his first time DMing so it was a learning experience for him, however. No hard feelings. Sometimes its easy to forget what its like to be a Player. I know I can.

By the way, I love Iron Heroes!

But isn't the point of the game (well, one of the points anyway) to be challenged by monsters? In other words, who cares what the CR of the monster was. Look at it this way, if you hadn't read the monster manual and didn't know that the CR of the monster you were fighting was lower than your character level, would you know? Wouldn't you just assume, "I'm a 10th level fighter and that 'troll' thingy we just fought was tough but we eventually killed it, so it' must've been CR 11 or so?" Obviously this breaks down when the DM blindly puts the party up against opponents that are far too tough to beat. Playing a low magic game just means that monsters with lower CR's become correspondingly tougher. In effect, their CR's are increased.

 

[tetsujin28]

It's not just that. The CR of everything is effectively increased, including life. Iron Heroes is the way to go in this situation, without a doubt.

 

[S'mon]

Then, of course, the druid joined the party. Don't get me started on by the book spellcasters mixed in with non-spellcasters who don't have magical items. His summons were more effective than I was.

Yeah, this is why the 3e classes as written only work with near-to standard magic item levels (or more). I run a lower-magic-item setting and it's always a challenge. My solution is a minimalist one of constraining spellcaster class power somewhat (mostly by nerfing specific spells, plus making Divine spellcasting spontaneous from a limited list) while somewhat boosting non-spellcaster class power - Rogues get d8 hd, Fighting Styles for fighters etc - and, most importantly, be reasonably generous with magic items, especially items for use by non-spellcasting PCs. There's still a problem with NPCs IMO, above low level the spellcaster PC classes with NPC wealth are considerably tougher than the non-spellcasters; a Fighter-6 NPC is very hard to make a CR 6 challenge, whereas a Wiz-6 NPC easily can be.