Spoilers Ironheart spoilers

[Morrus]

OK. l’ve never watched Breaking Bad or The Sopranos, so I was just going by what the article I linked to said: “Marvel executive producer Sev Ohanian says Ironheart's Riri Williams goes down a similar path to some of TV's greatest antiheroes.”

Sev is quoted as saying “She kind of breaks bad in the show, and we go to some uncomfortable places for audiences that I think will be really fun to explore, almost in the vein of Walter White from Breaking Bad or Tony Soprano."

Wow, boy do they think highly of themselves!

No, there’s no comparison.

 

[Ryujin]

OK. l’ve never watched Breaking Bad or The Sopranos, so I was just going by what the article I linked to said: “Marvel executive producer Sev Ohanian says Ironheart's Riri Williams goes down a similar path to some of TV's greatest antiheroes.”

Sev is quoted as saying “She kind of breaks bad in the show, and we go to some uncomfortable places for audiences that I think will be really fun to explore, almost in the vein of Walter White from Breaking Bad or Tony Soprano."

Unfortunately some seem to think that "antihero" means "bad guy protagonist." Even some film journalists, it would appear. What it really means is "protagonist who will do morally ambiguous or questionable things, in order to try and bring about a good result." At least that's my shorthand, but then again, "Morally Ambiguous" is my favourite literary term, to the point that I named my website for it.

 

[Tonguez]

One thing I have been thinking about but who I dont have anyone to bounce off is the whole issue of criminal stereotype in the urban black community. Riri is a very smat black woman in chicago, has the trauma of surviving a drive by shooting and who recently spent time living with the Princess of Wakanda (and almost triggering a war). Those things are all great background for development of the character.

But in the first 3 episodes we go through another story of urban black criminality where Riri is recruited into a criminal gang who are willing to do violence and intimidation on top of their burglary. Riri willingly participates in the criminal acts until it all goes wrong and she causes a death (at least she believes so).

I rolled my eyes when that was set up, and didnt enjoy it primarily due to the stereotyping that happens in so many stories of urban black youth. I'm not a black youth in the USA (or elsewhere) so dont know how prevalent the situation is in real life maybe it is the only story to be told.!?
Then we get the second half of the series where Riri has her crisis, spins out to protect herself. I enjoyed the action of the second part more than the first part as it was her doing superhero-ey investigations and confrontation of the bad guys. But was that supposed to be a redemption arc? or should we view Ironheart as criminally inclined despite her genius and access to a ironman suit? - even more so now that she has made a pact with the devilMephisto

I dunno, but comparing her to Tony Soprano is nudging her towards criminality (despite the comparison reflecting the directors overinflated opinion of themselves rather than a real comparison)

anyway just some thoughts, I dont know if anyone here is willing or able to comment ...

 

[Ryujin]

One thing I have been thinking about but who I dont have anyone to bounce off is the whole issue of criminal stereotype in the urban black community. Riri is a very smat black woman in chicago, has the trauma of surviving a drive by shooting and who recently spent time living with the Princess of Wakanda (and almost triggering a war). Those things are all great background for development of the character.

But in the first 3 episodes we go through another story of urban black criminality where Riri is recruited into a criminal gang who are willing to do violence and intimidation on top of their burglary. Riri willingly participates in the criminal acts until it all goes wrong and she causes a death (at least she believes so).

I rolled my eyes when that was set up, and didnt enjoy it primarily due to the stereotyping that happens in so many stories of urban black youth. I'm not a black youth in the USA (or elsewhere) so dont know how prevalent the situation is in real life maybe it is the only story to be told.!?
Then we get the second half of the series where Riri has her crisis, spins out to protect herself. I enjoyed the action of the second part more than the first part as it was her doing superhero-ey investigations and confrontation of the bad guys. But was that supposed to be a redemption arc? or should we view Ironheart as criminally inclined despite her genius and access to a ironman suit? - even more so now that she has made a pact with the devilMephisto

I dunno, but comparing her to Tony Soprano is nudging her towards criminality (despite the comparison reflecting the directors overinflated opinion of themselves rather than a real comparison)

anyway just some thoughts, I dont know if anyone here is willing or able to commet ...

It did hit me a little bit like the Blacksploitation films I remember from the '60s/'70s but, being a boomer White guy, my opinion on that means less than nothing.

 

[chuckdee]

One thing I have been thinking about but who I dont have anyone to bounce off is the whole issue of criminal stereotype in the urban black community. Riri is a very smat black woman in chicago, has the trauma of surviving a drive by shooting and who recently spent time living with the Princess of Wakanda (and almost triggering a war). Those things are all great background for development of the character.

But in the first 3 episodes we go through another story of urban black criminality where Riri is recruited into a criminal gang who are willing to do violence and intimidation on top of their burglary. Riri willingly participates in the criminal acts until it all goes wrong and she causes a death (at least she believes so).

I rolled my eyes when that was set up, and didnt enjoy it primarily due to the stereotyping that happens in so many stories of urban black youth. I'm not a black youth in the USA (or elsewhere) so dont know how prevalent the situation is in real life maybe it is the only story to be told.!?
Then we get the second half of the series where Riri has her crisis, spins out to protect herself. I enjoyed the action of the second part more than the first part as it was her doing superhero-ey investigations and confrontation of the bad guys. But was that supposed to be a redemption arc? or should we view Ironheart as criminally inclined despite her genius and access to a ironman suit? - even more so now that she has made a pact with the devilMephisto

I dunno, but comparing her to Tony Soprano is nudging her towards criminality (despite the comparison reflecting the directors overinflated opinion of themselves rather than a real comparison)

anyway just some thoughts, I dont know if anyone here is willing or able to comment ...

I didn't particularly see it this way. I saw it as (1) she was short on resources, (2) she was recruited blind, (3) she did mention she didn't want to hurt anyone and the Hood soft-sold it, blinding her with money, (4) she is very arrogant and focused a lot on her goals and getting what she need (zeke was right on the money about her) and (5) she didn't see the violence from the others - only from the Hood the time he saved her, which still bothered her, and by the second time she was already out.

Natalie said it best- she saw the Hood as sus from the beginning, but she was blinded by money and what she needed and the plausible deniability of not seeing/being involved in the violence, along with thinking they were pulling a Robin Hood.

I don't think there was particularly anything that she needs a redemption arc for, personally- at least not up until now. She made some bad decisions, blinded by her own needs, and she needs to change the way she thinks/acts.

 

[AnotherGuy]

One thing I have been thinking about but who I dont have anyone to bounce off is the whole issue of criminal stereotype in the urban black community. Riri is a very smat black woman in chicago, has the trauma of surviving a drive by shooting and who recently spent time living with the Princess of Wakanda (and almost triggering a war). Those things are all great background for development of the character.

This is Disney Sir.

But in the first 3 episodes we go through another story of urban black criminality where Riri is recruited into a criminal gang who are willing to do violence and intimidation on top of their burglary.

At this point one can only conclude this was purposeful.

I rolled my eyes when that was set up, and didnt enjoy it primarily due to the stereotyping that happens in so many stories of urban black youth. I'm not a black youth in the USA (or elsewhere) so dont know how prevalent the situation is in real life maybe it is the only story to be told.!?

Apparently so.

 

[Eric V]

Tony Soprano is not an antihero. He’s the main protagonist of the show, sure, but he’s an out and out villain.

For sure. Same for Walter White.

 

[Kaodi]

I enjoyed it but it felt kind of shallow and disjointed. Also a very weird place for Mephisto to finally show up. I suppose though it happening in Chicago means we will not have to worry about good Catholic boy Matt Murdock getting wind of an actual devil showing up. But they did not really do enough to address Natalie not being Natalie nor did they really address why it might be wrong to delete her.

 

[Ryujin]

I enjoyed it but it felt kind of shallow and disjointed. Also a very weird place for Mephisto to finally show up. I suppose though it happening in Chicago means we will not have to worry about good Catholic boy Matt Murdock getting wind of an actual devil showing up. But they did not really do enough to address Natalie not being Natalie nor did they really address why it might be wrong to delete her.

If I remember correctly the hood and boots tied him to Dormammu, in the comics, which is probably why they had Parker misidentify Mephisto as Dormammu in the series (an Easter Egg). They had mentioned Mephisto and needed a place to introduce him, so this became it.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I have a few thoughts on Ironheart.

First thought- it was fine. I did not regret watching it. I will continue to say that the problem that I have with MCU series like this is that they just don't work well as TV series. They are movie-adjacent content. For that reason, there is always something that feels lacking in them- because you know you won't get to dwell with any of the characters in the same way you would with an ongoing series, so there's a certain pointlessness to it.

2- That said, I thought it was pretty good for an MCUTV series. It wasn't one of the absolute best, and it wasn't groundbreaking, but it was solid and well-executed for the most part.

3- I think they did a great job at setting up Riri's final decision in the last episode. THIS IS A SPOILERS THREAD, REMEMBER? We had seen the pathos. We had seen her struggle with the grief and the loss. We had seen her literally tell her friends off before she left, saying that she could use magic to bring her friend (in that scenario, the AI) back. And we had seen her repeatedly ignore the fact .... even when it was served up to her on a silver platter ... that magic is going to require a sacrifice. Finally, we can see the process of Riri's self-deception (it's only going to affect her, right .... ha).

Look, I went into the show and the finale blind. Even though it was all set up, even though I saw the story payoff coming, I still assumed Marvel was going to Marvel ... and Riri was gonna be all, "Naw, I see through you Ali G. I've learned valuable lessons about letting go and stuff. Plus, did you see what happened to the last guy?"

But they didn't Marvel it. I was shocked, surprised, and happy to see that actual character work pay off. If you strip away all the superhero stuff and the magic stuff ... it was a sad and moving story about someone who is still broken, and the decisions that they make.