Irreconcilable differences(Forked Thread: When did I stop being WotC's...)

[Thasmodious]

I'm sorry, there has been a very noticeable and very large difference between what happened with 3e coming out and what happened when 4e came out.

No, there really wasn't. Forum activity may be more widespread, but the arguments were the same with just some flavor changes (videogames have killed D&D; AC goes UP?! What have they done! Playable monsters - ridiculous! What's this AoE nonsense with these crazy grid shapes for cones and cirlces?)

As oblivion mentions, those upset about the OGL is the only new avenue here, and it has some validity, although the modified GSL has a good bit of promise, and certainly hasn't shut the door on 3rd party development.

Oh and relaxedacoplaypse, I think I got your point better after your reply to me, thanks for the clarification.

 

[justanobody]

Really? People have posted some of the message board outbursts from the dawn of 3E and a lot of it sounds just the same as it does now. The only thing I see now that I didn't see then was people who really liked the OGL and D&D being part of it being upset that 4E has left that behind.

Did 3rd have the requirement to sign up for online services to play? Did it demolish a game not twice but 3 times (DDM)?

DDM 1.0
DDM 2.0 (War Drums)
DDM 3.0 (2.0)
D&D 4th edition and DDM 4.0 (Heroes and Monsters)

Hey the edition numbers match now.

Basically it boils down to the more things change, the more they stay the same. People don't like the changes.

 

[Fifth Element]

Did 3rd have the requirement to sign up for online services to play?

Are we talking about 5E again?

 

[der_kluge]

Tell that to the Internet when 3rd edition came out.

I wish someone (other than myself) would go back and dig through some usenet archives from circa September 2000 to see what kinds of gnashing of teeth and hand wringing was going on with folks with the release of 3rd edition.

Personally, I recall lots of folks being really excited about the new edition. Certainly not everyone was on board with the artwork, and the style, but everyone I knew pretty much collectively move towards it. Today - I don't know anyone in real life playing 4th edition. And if you believe the online polls, fully half the people outright hate the system. 3rd edition wasn't anywhere near those numbers.

 

[Hussar]

Nope they already did that.

Dungeon Delve

Now you don't need books to play D&D RPG, just grab some minis and go to the combat.

I can't find the actual page that explains the concept, but it is somewhere on the site...

Funny thing. Back in the 80's, I played Queen of the Demonweb pits without a DM.

Heck you can play 1ed quite easily without a DM, you've got all the random generators right there.

The more things change.

Der Kluge - I didn't hang out on Usenet, but, PlanetAd&D at the time was pretty vocal in hating all things 3e. Heck, the fact that you have an entire forum and community created specifically because of the dislike of 3e shows how strong the opposition to 3e was at the time.

 

[Derro]

I wish someone (other than myself) would go back and dig through some usenet archives from circa September 2000 to see what kinds of gnashing of teeth and hand wringing was going on with folks with the release of 3rd edition.

Personally, I recall lots of folks being really excited about the new edition. Certainly not everyone was on board with the artwork, and the style, but everyone I knew pretty much collectively move towards it. Today - I don't know anyone in real life playing 4th edition. And if you believe the online polls, fully half the people outright hate the system. 3rd edition wasn't anywhere near those numbers.

I can't give any hard numbers but I do remember most of the 2e-->3e angst being pre-release. Once the OGL/STL was finalized and released the anti-3e noise quieted considerably. People were excited that the game was becoming a lot more community oriented especially in the wake of TSR's gross-ish mishandling of the brand.

I, too, am of the opinion that the 3e/4e split is much more contentious and divisive than the 2e/3e split. I think that the picture will be much clearer come June 2009 when 4e has had some time to get its legs, the incomplete feel has been mitigated by splats, and maybe... maybe the GSL has been released in a satisfactory from.

I think that 3e will always have a more substantial following than 2e does and it may even continue to expand since the OGL allows for further growth. I don't have much hope for a 5e that is going to satisfy the wants of the current 3e proponents. The game has taken on a particular flavor that is, IMO, unlikely to return to its earlier roots. This whole "super cool, turned up to 11" deal is probably here to stay as far as WotC publications are concerned and probably any 3PPs that can/will follow the path.

I'm glad that there are lots of options in gaming. There's something for everyone.

 

[justanobody]

Are we talking about 5E again?

No I was not talking about you 5E.

 

[Treebore]

Everyone just needs to come over to my side. Play C&C and appreciate every incarnation of D&D for what it offers.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

Funny thing. Back in the 80's, I played Queen of the Demonweb pits without a DM.

Heck you can play 1ed quite easily without a DM, you've got all the random generators right there.

The more things change.

Der Kluge - I didn't hang out on Usenet, but, PlanetAd&D at the time was pretty vocal in hating all things 3e. Heck, the fact that you have an entire forum and community created specifically because of the dislike of 3e shows how strong the opposition to 3e was at the time.

Ah, if only Planet AD&D would have survived, then people could see how bad it was when 3rd edition came out. 20.000 posts in one thread calling the designers names impossible to imagine, hundreds of trolls decending on every thread in the 3e fora, Halaster Blackcloaks multi-page rants against 3rd....

Priceless.

Myself, i would have expected only 30% of the hardcore audience to pick up 4e. There was simply too much 3e love. In a way, 4e is for those people who had given up on 3e, frustrated by the system and assumptions. And for people like me who like real typography.

All this "they´ll kill roleplaying next, i tell you" and "you have to be online to play teh game" is just business as usual.

 

[Thasmodious]

Ah, if only Planet AD&D would have survived, then people could see how bad it was when 3rd edition came out. 20.000 posts in one thread calling the designers names impossible to imagine, hundreds of trolls decending on every thread in the 3e fora, Halaster Blackcloaks multi-page rants against 3rd....

Priceless.

Myself, i would have expected only 30% of the hardcore audience to pick up 4e. There was simply too much 3e love. In a way, 4e is for those people who had given up on 3e, frustrated by the system and assumptions. And for people like me who like real typography.

All this "they´ll kill roleplaying next, i tell you" and "you have to be online to play teh game" is just business as usual.

I remember it well, too. I mentioned in the thread this was forked from that one of the prominent RPG bloggers posted a link to a collected archive (from Planet and other sources, iirc) of 3e trashing posts from the time of its release. It was refreshing to have my memories confirmed and allowed me to accept that the mindless hate is the same mindless hate as then, likely even from a few of the same people, only shifting their love/hate editions up a notch (from 2/3 to 3/4).

I was excited about 3e, played it, loved it. It had its time, times change, things grow, and we move on. Such is life.

What I really don't get, then or now, is the depth of the nerd rage. Months after release, the same group of posters can't leave it alone, and I don't mean in specific edition war threads like this or the one this was forked from. But in just about every thread concerning 4e gameplay, the same people are still attacking the game and its players. No matter the topic, a 4e player asking the community for help on some aspect of play, or how to houserule something they want, or a new monster, whatever, someone has to go on the edition attack in those threads. I don't see "4e fanbois" jumping up in every d20 thread yelling "4e rulez. abandon your crap system and come to the light!" Not saying it doesn't happen, and I don't read a lot of the d20 threads as I've moved on, but those I do, I don't see this.

I guess I'm just left wondering, mostly in awe, how long it takes nerd rage to abate. For some, it won't, ever. There are still people who consider anythign post TSR to be complete blasphemy and nothing Wizards could ever do would get these players back. That's just the way I guess. Still, it's a curiousity.