D&D 4E Is 4E doing it for you?

Just so.

I still recall, to this day, my 7th grade English teacher's admonition on how long an essay should be. She said, "It should be like a girl's skirt: short enough to be interesting, but long enough to cover the subject." :D

This is my attitude towards rules. It's not always "fewer rules is better" as some would suggest. If it were, we can all pack our 3e and 4e books up and play RISUS. ;)

I would say it even goes so far as a per-topic level on what players expect details to be provided. But IME, different players have different expectations; covering them all may have one player wondering if it's necessary to cover something in such detail when another is thankful for that particular detail.

That's a good point.

I recall once upon a time, sitting with my Complete Book of Humanoids, griping about how monsters lacked things like ability scores and such that would make them "more PC-like".

When it was revealed that 3e would have "monsters that behaved like PCs", I was overjoyed. Finally, something there would make sense...

And for a while it did. Then I got into stating monsters. Adding templates, advancing HD. Adding class levels. Before it was never a big deal, since if I wanted a vampire mage, I just gave him spells like an X level wizard and called it done (typically doubling XP reward). 3e answered my wish: monsters behaved like PCs, but in the process became hard to run as monsters.

4e took a step back, and so far has come to a agreeable compromise. They have ability scores and skills, but aren't micromanaged down like 3e monsters were. It's not perfect, but so far I'm finding it the best compromise.

Now, you can sub monster-creation and rules for anything else: grapple, high-level D&D, etc. I'm not sure 4e is the Holy Grail, but I'm finding it an acceptable compromise between the lawless do-it-yourself ways 2e often treated gray areas and "what gray areas?" attitude of 3e's a-rule-for-every-situation-and-every-situation-a-rule. mode.
 

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I'm finding it an acceptable compromise between the lawless do-it-yourself ways 2e often treated gray areas and "what gray areas?" attitude of 3e's a-rule-for-every-situation-and-every-situation-a-rule. mode.

I like the idea of the rules being simplified a little from 3.5, the "completeness" in the endless quest for perfect balance did somewhat strangle it in my opinion, but only if you throw rule zero out the window which I didn't do.

The simplicity of 4E is nice but the WoW stuff with the temporary powers and all the board game like qualities of it ruin it for me. I'm sticking with pathfinder tempered by rule zero.

G.
 

What I can't for the life of me understand is why you would think that anyone who can handle the pitches would not find the tee vastly underwhelming.
This is a poor analogy.

I ran 3e/3.5/Arcana Evolved for 8 years and achieved a very high degree of system mastery. Not memorize-every-single-spell mastery, mind you, but I'd put myself in the highly competent category, and my adjudications at the table were spot-on.

You're making the assumption, as I read it, that somehow a DM and group of players should find a game that's as complex as they can reasonably handle, because that would be a superior play experience. Or, that people who play simpler games don't enjoy more complex games because they can't handle said complexity.

In the wide variety of games I've run, I haven't found very strong correlation between game complexity and enjoyment. There's a lot besides complexity that makes for mechanically interesting, varied, and compelling play experiences.

-O
 

As a serious question, is the formatting really that big of an issue, namely if someone wrote OGL adventures and Monster Books with a reformatted statblook that spelled out all feats and abilities would that make a difference in the playability of 3.x? Too me it seems like some of the improvements between editions were more formatting in nature and books for 3.x could have been layed out in a similar manner without the need to limit that kind of a change to being edition specific.

Stat block for the Vrock, with all spell like abilities added in, and the base spell if the SLA is derived from a lower level spell. And the conditions they cause.

And the Dretch stat block, because a Vrock can summon a Dretch. And the Dretch's SLAs. And the base spells... and the conditions...

[sblock]Vrock
Size/Type:
Large Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil)

Hit Dice:
10d8+70 (115 hp)

Initiative:
+2

Speed:
30 ft. (6 squares), fly 50 ft. (average)

Armor Class:
22 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +11 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 20

Base Attack/Grapple:
+10/+20

Attack:
Claw +15 melee (2d6+6)

Full Attack:
2 claws +15 melee (2d6+6) and bite +13 melee (1d8+3) and 2 talons +13 melee (1d6+3)

Space/Reach:
10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks:
Dance of ruin, spell-like abilities, spores, stunning screech, summon demon
Special Qualities:
Damage reduction 10/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, spell resistance 17, telepathy 100 ft.

Saves:
Fort +14, Ref +9, Will +10

Abilities:
Str 23, Dex 15, Con 25, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 16
Skills:
Concentration +20, Diplomacy +5, Hide +11, Intimidate +16, Knowledge (any one) +15, Listen +24, Move Silently +15, Search +15, Sense Motive +16, Spellcraft +15, Spot +24, Survival +3 (+5 following tracks)
Feats:
Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Multiattack, Power Attack

Environment:
A chaotic evil-aligned plane
Organization:
Solitary, pair, gang (3-5), or squad (6-10)
Challenge Rating:
9
Treasure:
Standard
Alignment:
Always chaotic evil
Advancement:
11-14 HD (Large); 15-30 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment:
+8
A vrock is about 8 feet tall and weighs about 500 pounds.
Combat
Vrocks are vicious fighters who like to fly down into the enemy and cause as much damage as possible. They prance about in battle, taking briefly to the air and bringing their clawed feet into play. Despite their advantage in mobility, the vrocks’ deep love of battle frequently leads them into melee combats against heavy odds.
A vrock’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Dance of Ruin (Su)
To use this ability, a group of at least three vrocks must join hands in a circle, dancing wildly and chanting.
At the end of 3 rounds of dancing, a wave of crackling energy flashes outward in a 100-foot radius. All creatures except for demons within the radius take 20d6 points of damage (Reflex DC 18 half). Stunning, paralyzing, or slaying one of the vrocks stops the dance. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Spell-Like Abilities
At will—mirror image, telekinesis (DC 18), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only); 1/day—heroism. Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Mirror Image
Illusion (Figment)
Level:
Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2

Components:
V, S
Casting Time:
1 standard action

Range:
Personal; see text
Target:
You
Duration:
1 min./level (D)
Several illusory duplicates of you pop into being, making it difficult for enemies to know which target to attack. The figments stay near you and disappear when struck.
Mirror image creates 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total). These figments separate from you and remain in a cluster, each within 5 feet of at least one other figment or you. You can move into and through a mirror image. When you and the mirror image separate, observers can’t use vision or hearing to tell which one is you and which the image. The figments may also move through each other. The figments mimic your actions, pretending to cast spells when you cast a spell, drink potions when you drink a potion, levitate when you levitate, and so on.
Enemies attempting to attack you or cast spells at you must select from among indistinguishable targets. Generally, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. Any successful attack against an image destroys it. An image’s AC is 10 + your size modifier + your Dex modifier. Figments seem to react normally to area spells (such as looking like they’re burned or dead after being hit by a fireball).
While moving, you can merge with and split off from figments so that enemies who have learned which image is real are again confounded.
An attacker must be able to see the images to be fooled. If you are invisible or an attacker shuts his or her eyes, the spell has no effect. (Being unable to see carries the same penalties as being blinded.)
Telekinesis
Transmutation
Level:
Sor/Wiz 5

Components:
V, S
Casting Time:
1 standard action

Range:
Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target or Targets:
See text
Duration:
Concentration (up to 1 round/ level) or instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw:
Will negates (object) or None; see text
Spell Resistance:
Yes (object); see text
You move objects or creatures by concentrating on them. Depending on the version selected, the spell can provide a gentle, sustained force, perform a variety of combat maneuvers, or exert a single short, violent thrust.
Sustained Force
A sustained force moves an object weighing no more than 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level) up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect on an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with spell resistance.
This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration. The weight can be moved vertically, horizontally, or in both directions. An object cannot be moved beyond your range. The spell ends if the object is forced beyond the range. If you cease concentration for any reason, the object falls or stops.
An object can be telekinetically manipulated as if with one hand. For example, a lever or rope can be pulled, a key can be turned, an object rotated, and so on, if the force required is within the weight limitation. You might even be able to untie simple knots, though delicate activities such as these require Intelligence checks.
Combat Maneuver
Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple), you use your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as for disarm or trip). No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally. This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.
Violent Thrust
Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects. You can hurl up to a total weight of 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level).
You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects).
Creatures who fall within the weight capacity of the spell can be hurled, but they are allowed Will saves (and spell resistance) to negate the effect, as are those whose held possessions are targeted by the spell. If a telekinesed creature is hurled against a solid surface, it takes damage as if it had fallen 10 feet (1d6 points).
Teleport, Greater
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level:
Sor/Wiz 7, Travel 7

This spell functions like teleport, except that there is no range limit and there is no chance you arrive off target. In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting. If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location. Interplanar travel is not possible.
Teleport
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level:
Sor/Wiz 5, Travel 5

Components:
V
Casting Time:
1 standard action

Range:
Personal and touch
Target:
You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
Duration:
Instantaneous
Saving Throw:
None and Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance:
No and Yes (object)
This spell instantly transports you to a designated destination, which may be as distant as 100 miles per caster level. Interplanar travel is not possible. You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent (see below) per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you. As with all spells where the range is personal and the target is you, you need not make a saving throw, nor is spell resistance applicable to you. Only objects held or in use (attended) by another person receive saving throws and spell resistance.
You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination. The clearer your mental image, the more likely the teleportation works. Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible.
To see how well the teleportation works, roll d% and consult the Teleport table. Refer to the following information for definitions of the terms on the table.
Familiarity
“Very familiar” is a place where you have been very often and where you feel at home. “Studied carefully” is a place you know well, either because you can currently see it, you’ve been there often, or you have used other means (such as scrying) to study the place for at least one hour. “Seen casually” is a place that you have seen more than once but with which you are not very familiar. “Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic.
“False destination” is a place that does not truly exist or if you are teleporting to an otherwise familiar location that no longer exists as such or has been so completely altered as to no longer be familiar to you. When traveling to a false destination, roll 1d20+80 to obtain results on the table, rather than rolling d%, since there is no real destination for you to hope to arrive at or even be off target from.
On Target
You appear where you want to be.
Off Target
You appear safely a random distance away from the destination in a random direction. Distance off target is 1d10×1d10% of the distance that was to be traveled. The direction off target is determined randomly
Similar Area
You wind up in an area that’s visually or thematically similar to the target area.
Generally, you appear in the closest similar place within range. If no such area exists within the spell’s range, the spell simply fails instead.
Mishap
You and anyone else teleporting with you have gotten “scrambled.” You each take 1d10 points of damage, and you reroll on the chart to see where you wind up. For these rerolls, roll 1d20+80. Each time “Mishap” comes up, the characters take more damage and must reroll.
Familiarity On Target Off Target Similar Area Mishap
Very familiar 01-97 98-99 100 —
Studied carefully 01-94 95-97 98-99 100
Seen casually 01-88 89-94 95-98 99-100
Viewed once 01-76 77-88 89-96 97-100
False destination (1d20+80)
— — 81-92 93-100
Heroism
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level:
Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 3

Components:
V, S
Casting Time:
1 standard action

Range:
Touch
Target:
Creature touched
Duration:
10 min./level
Saving Throw:
Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance:
Yes (harmless)
This spell imbues a single creature with great bravery and morale in battle. The target gains a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks.

Spores (Ex)
A vrock can release masses of spores from its body once every 3 rounds as a free action. The spores automatically deal 1d8 points of damage to all creatures adjacent to the vrock. They then penetrate the skin and grow, dealing an additional 1d4 points of damage each round for 10 rounds. At the end of this time, the victim is covered with a tangle of viny growths. (The vines are harmless and wither away in 1d4 days.) A delay poison spell stops the spores’ growth for its duration. Bless, neutralize poison, or remove disease kills the spores, as does sprinkling the victim with a vial of holy water.
Stunning Screech (Su)
Once per hour a vrock can emit a piercing screech. All creatures except for demons within a 30-foot radius must succeed on a DC 22 Fortitude save or be stunned for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Stunned
A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).
Summon Demon (Sp)
Once per day a vrock can attempt to summon 2d10 dretches or another vrock with a 35% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell.
Skills
Vrocks have a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.
Dretch
Size/Type:
Small Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil)

Hit Dice:
2d8+4 (13 hp)

Initiative:
+0

Speed:
20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class:
16 (+1 size, +5 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 16

Base Attack/Grapple:
+2/-1

Attack:
Claw +4 melee (1d6+1)

Full Attack:
2 claws +4 melee (1d6+1) and bite +2 melee (1d4)

Space/Reach:
5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks:
Spell-like abilities, summon demon

Special Qualities:
Damage reduction 5/cold iron or good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, telepathy 100 ft.

Saves:
Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +3

Abilities:
Str 12, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 5, Wis 11, Cha 11
Skills:
Hide +9, Listen +5, Move Silently +5, Spot +5, Search +2, Survival +0 (+2 following tracks)

Feats:
Multiattack

Environment:
A chaotic evil-aligned plane
Organization:
Solitary, pair, gang (3-5), crowd (6-15), or mob (10-40)
Challenge Rating:
2
Treasure:
None
Alignment:
Always chaotic evil
Advancement:
3-6 HD (Small)
Level Adjustment:
+2
A dretch is about 4 feet tall and weighs about 60 pounds.
Dretches cannot speak but can communicate telepathically.
Combat
Dretches are slow, stupid, and not very effective combatants. In one-on-one combat, they rely on their damage reduction to keep them alive. In groups, they depend on sheer numbers to overcome foes and immediately summon other dretches to improve the odds in battle. They flee at the first sign of adversity unless more powerful demons are present to intimidate them into fighting. Dretches’ fear of their greater kin is stronger then even their fear of death.
A dretch’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Spell-Like Abilities
1/day—scare (DC 12), stinking cloud (DC 13). Caster level 2nd. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Summon Demon (Sp)
Once per day a dretch can attempt to summon another dretch with a 35% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell.
Telepathy (Su)
Dretches can communicate telepathically with creatures within 100 feet that speak Abyssal.
Scare
Necromancy [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
Level:
Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2

Components:
V, S, M
Casting Time:
1 standard action

Range:
Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets:
One living creature per three levels, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration:
1 round/level or 1 round; see text for cause fear

Saving Throw:
Will partial
Spell Resistance:
Yes
This spell functions like cause fear, except that it causes all targeted creatures of less than 6 HD to become frightened.
Material Component
A bit of bone from an undead skeleton, zombie, ghoul, ghast, or mummy.

Cause Fear
Necromancy [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
Level:
Brd 1, Clr 1, Death 1, Sor/Wiz 1

Components:
V, S
Casting Time:
1 standard action

Range:
Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target:
One living creature with 5 or fewer HD
Duration:
1d4 rounds or 1 round; see text

Saving Throw:
Will partial
Spell Resistance:
Yes
The affected creature becomes frightened. If the subject succeeds on a Will save, it is shaken for 1 round. Creatures with 6 or more Hit Dice are immune to this effect.
Cause fear counters and dispels remove fear.
Frightened
A frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A frightened creature takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.
Frightened is like shaken, except that the creature must flee if possible. Panicked is a more extreme state of fear.

Stinking Cloud
Conjuration (Creation)
Level:
Sor/Wiz 3

Components:
V, S, M
Casting Time:
1 standard action

Range:
Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect:
Cloud spreads in 20-ft. radius, 20 ft. high
Duration:
1 round/level
Saving Throw:
Fortitude negates; see text
Spell Resistance:
No
Stinking cloud creates a bank of fog like that created by fog cloud, except that the vapors are nauseating. Living creatures in the cloud become nauseated. This condition lasts as long as the creature is in the cloud and for 1d4+1 rounds after it leaves. (Roll separately for each nauseated character.) Any creature that succeeds on its save but remains in the cloud must continue to save each round on your turn.
Stinking cloud can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent stinking cloud dispersed by wind reforms in 10 minutes.
Material Component
A rotten egg or several skunk cabbage leaves.
Nauseated
Experiencing stomach distress. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move action per turn.

[/sblock]
 

This is a poor analogy.
I disagree.

You're making the assumption, as I read it, that somehow a DM and group of players should find a game that's as complex as they can reasonably handle, because that would be a superior play experience. Or, that people who play simpler games don't enjoy more complex games because they can't handle said complexity.

In the wide variety of games I've run, I haven't found very strong correlation between game complexity and enjoyment. There's a lot besides complexity that makes for mechanically interesting, varied, and compelling play experiences.

-O
That isn't my point. I certainly think there is some element of truth to that, but there are certainly many other variables when you start talking about all RPGs out there. However, for the very specific case at hand, my analogy stands quite well.
 

And how long would a battle with a vrock actually last?

3-4 rounds at best and I've seen vrocks taken out in 1 round thanks to maximized uberchargers....
 

Stat block for the Vrock, with all spell like abilities added in, and the base spell if the SLA is derived from a lower level spell. And the conditions they cause.

And the Dretch stat block, because a Vrock can summon a Dretch. And the Dretch's SLAs. And the base spells... and the conditions...

[sblock]Vrock
Size/Type:
Large Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil)

Hit Dice:
10d8+70 (115 hp)

Initiative:
+2

Speed:
30 ft. (6 squares), fly 50 ft. (average)

Armor Class:
22 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +11 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 20

Base Attack/Grapple:
+10/+20

Attack:
Claw +15 melee (2d6+6)

Full Attack:
2 claws +15 melee (2d6+6) and bite +13 melee (1d8+3) and 2 talons +13 melee (1d6+3)

Space/Reach:
10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks:
Dance of ruin, spell-like abilities, spores, stunning screech, summon demon
Special Qualities:
Damage reduction 10/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, spell resistance 17, telepathy 100 ft.

Saves:
Fort +14, Ref +9, Will +10

Abilities:
Str 23, Dex 15, Con 25, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 16
Skills:
Concentration +20, Diplomacy +5, Hide +11, Intimidate +16, Knowledge (any one) +15, Listen +24, Move Silently +15, Search +15, Sense Motive +16, Spellcraft +15, Spot +24, Survival +3 (+5 following tracks)
Feats:
Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Multiattack, Power Attack

Environment:
A chaotic evil-aligned plane
Organization:
Solitary, pair, gang (3-5), or squad (6-10)
Challenge Rating:
9
Treasure:
Standard
Alignment:
Always chaotic evil
Advancement:
11-14 HD (Large); 15-30 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment:
+8
A vrock is about 8 feet tall and weighs about 500 pounds.
Combat
Vrocks are vicious fighters who like to fly down into the enemy and cause as much damage as possible. They prance about in battle, taking briefly to the air and bringing their clawed feet into play. Despite their advantage in mobility, the vrocks’ deep love of battle frequently leads them into melee combats against heavy odds.
A vrock’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Dance of Ruin (Su)
To use this ability, a group of at least three vrocks must join hands in a circle, dancing wildly and chanting.
At the end of 3 rounds of dancing, a wave of crackling energy flashes outward in a 100-foot radius. All creatures except for demons within the radius take 20d6 points of damage (Reflex DC 18 half). Stunning, paralyzing, or slaying one of the vrocks stops the dance. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Spell-Like Abilities
At will—mirror image, telekinesis (DC 18), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only); 1/day—heroism. Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Mirror Image
Illusion (Figment)
Level:
Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2

Components:
V, S
Casting Time:
1 standard action

Range:
Personal; see text
Target:
You
Duration:
1 min./level (D)
Several illusory duplicates of you pop into being, making it difficult for enemies to know which target to attack. The figments stay near you and disappear when struck.
Mirror image creates 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total). These figments separate from you and remain in a cluster, each within 5 feet of at least one other figment or you. You can move into and through a mirror image. When you and the mirror image separate, observers can’t use vision or hearing to tell which one is you and which the image. The figments may also move through each other. The figments mimic your actions, pretending to cast spells when you cast a spell, drink potions when you drink a potion, levitate when you levitate, and so on.
Enemies attempting to attack you or cast spells at you must select from among indistinguishable targets. Generally, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. Any successful attack against an image destroys it. An image’s AC is 10 + your size modifier + your Dex modifier. Figments seem to react normally to area spells (such as looking like they’re burned or dead after being hit by a fireball).
While moving, you can merge with and split off from figments so that enemies who have learned which image is real are again confounded.
An attacker must be able to see the images to be fooled. If you are invisible or an attacker shuts his or her eyes, the spell has no effect. (Being unable to see carries the same penalties as being blinded.)
Telekinesis
Transmutation
Level:
Sor/Wiz 5

Components:
V, S
Casting Time:
1 standard action

Range:
Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target or Targets:
See text
Duration:
Concentration (up to 1 round/ level) or instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw:
Will negates (object) or None; see text
Spell Resistance:
Yes (object); see text
You move objects or creatures by concentrating on them. Depending on the version selected, the spell can provide a gentle, sustained force, perform a variety of combat maneuvers, or exert a single short, violent thrust.
Sustained Force
A sustained force moves an object weighing no more than 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level) up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect on an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with spell resistance.
This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration. The weight can be moved vertically, horizontally, or in both directions. An object cannot be moved beyond your range. The spell ends if the object is forced beyond the range. If you cease concentration for any reason, the object falls or stops.
An object can be telekinetically manipulated as if with one hand. For example, a lever or rope can be pulled, a key can be turned, an object rotated, and so on, if the force required is within the weight limitation. You might even be able to untie simple knots, though delicate activities such as these require Intelligence checks.
Combat Maneuver
Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple), you use your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as for disarm or trip). No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally. This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.
Violent Thrust
Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects. You can hurl up to a total weight of 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level).
You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects).
Creatures who fall within the weight capacity of the spell can be hurled, but they are allowed Will saves (and spell resistance) to negate the effect, as are those whose held possessions are targeted by the spell. If a telekinesed creature is hurled against a solid surface, it takes damage as if it had fallen 10 feet (1d6 points).
Teleport, Greater
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level:
Sor/Wiz 7, Travel 7

This spell functions like teleport, except that there is no range limit and there is no chance you arrive off target. In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting. If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location. Interplanar travel is not possible.
Teleport
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level:
Sor/Wiz 5, Travel 5

Components:
V
Casting Time:
1 standard action

Range:
Personal and touch
Target:
You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
Duration:
Instantaneous
Saving Throw:
None and Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance:
No and Yes (object)
This spell instantly transports you to a designated destination, which may be as distant as 100 miles per caster level. Interplanar travel is not possible. You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent (see below) per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you. As with all spells where the range is personal and the target is you, you need not make a saving throw, nor is spell resistance applicable to you. Only objects held or in use (attended) by another person receive saving throws and spell resistance.
You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination. The clearer your mental image, the more likely the teleportation works. Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible.
To see how well the teleportation works, roll d% and consult the Teleport table. Refer to the following information for definitions of the terms on the table.
Familiarity
“Very familiar” is a place where you have been very often and where you feel at home. “Studied carefully” is a place you know well, either because you can currently see it, you’ve been there often, or you have used other means (such as scrying) to study the place for at least one hour. “Seen casually” is a place that you have seen more than once but with which you are not very familiar. “Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic.
“False destination” is a place that does not truly exist or if you are teleporting to an otherwise familiar location that no longer exists as such or has been so completely altered as to no longer be familiar to you. When traveling to a false destination, roll 1d20+80 to obtain results on the table, rather than rolling d%, since there is no real destination for you to hope to arrive at or even be off target from.
On Target
You appear where you want to be.
Off Target
You appear safely a random distance away from the destination in a random direction. Distance off target is 1d10×1d10% of the distance that was to be traveled. The direction off target is determined randomly
Similar Area
You wind up in an area that’s visually or thematically similar to the target area.
Generally, you appear in the closest similar place within range. If no such area exists within the spell’s range, the spell simply fails instead.
Mishap
You and anyone else teleporting with you have gotten “scrambled.” You each take 1d10 points of damage, and you reroll on the chart to see where you wind up. For these rerolls, roll 1d20+80. Each time “Mishap” comes up, the characters take more damage and must reroll.
Familiarity On Target Off Target Similar Area Mishap
Very familiar 01-97 98-99 100 —
Studied carefully 01-94 95-97 98-99 100
Seen casually 01-88 89-94 95-98 99-100
Viewed once 01-76 77-88 89-96 97-100
False destination (1d20+80)
— — 81-92 93-100
Heroism
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level:
Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 3

Components:
V, S
Casting Time:
1 standard action

Range:
Touch
Target:
Creature touched
Duration:
10 min./level
Saving Throw:
Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance:
Yes (harmless)
This spell imbues a single creature with great bravery and morale in battle. The target gains a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks.

Spores (Ex)
A vrock can release masses of spores from its body once every 3 rounds as a free action. The spores automatically deal 1d8 points of damage to all creatures adjacent to the vrock. They then penetrate the skin and grow, dealing an additional 1d4 points of damage each round for 10 rounds. At the end of this time, the victim is covered with a tangle of viny growths. (The vines are harmless and wither away in 1d4 days.) A delay poison spell stops the spores’ growth for its duration. Bless, neutralize poison, or remove disease kills the spores, as does sprinkling the victim with a vial of holy water.
Stunning Screech (Su)
Once per hour a vrock can emit a piercing screech. All creatures except for demons within a 30-foot radius must succeed on a DC 22 Fortitude save or be stunned for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Stunned
A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).
Summon Demon (Sp)
Once per day a vrock can attempt to summon 2d10 dretches or another vrock with a 35% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell.
Skills
Vrocks have a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.
Dretch
Size/Type:
Small Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil)

Hit Dice:
2d8+4 (13 hp)

Initiative:
+0

Speed:
20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class:
16 (+1 size, +5 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 16

Base Attack/Grapple:
+2/-1

Attack:
Claw +4 melee (1d6+1)

Full Attack:
2 claws +4 melee (1d6+1) and bite +2 melee (1d4)

Space/Reach:
5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks:
Spell-like abilities, summon demon

Special Qualities:
Damage reduction 5/cold iron or good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, telepathy 100 ft.

Saves:
Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +3

Abilities:
Str 12, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 5, Wis 11, Cha 11
Skills:
Hide +9, Listen +5, Move Silently +5, Spot +5, Search +2, Survival +0 (+2 following tracks)

Feats:
Multiattack

Environment:
A chaotic evil-aligned plane
Organization:
Solitary, pair, gang (3-5), crowd (6-15), or mob (10-40)
Challenge Rating:
2
Treasure:
None
Alignment:
Always chaotic evil
Advancement:
3-6 HD (Small)
Level Adjustment:
+2
A dretch is about 4 feet tall and weighs about 60 pounds.
Dretches cannot speak but can communicate telepathically.
Combat
Dretches are slow, stupid, and not very effective combatants. In one-on-one combat, they rely on their damage reduction to keep them alive. In groups, they depend on sheer numbers to overcome foes and immediately summon other dretches to improve the odds in battle. They flee at the first sign of adversity unless more powerful demons are present to intimidate them into fighting. Dretches’ fear of their greater kin is stronger then even their fear of death.
A dretch’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Spell-Like Abilities
1/day—scare (DC 12), stinking cloud (DC 13). Caster level 2nd. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Summon Demon (Sp)
Once per day a dretch can attempt to summon another dretch with a 35% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell.
Telepathy (Su)
Dretches can communicate telepathically with creatures within 100 feet that speak Abyssal.
Scare
Necromancy [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
Level:
Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2

Components:
V, S, M
Casting Time:
1 standard action

Range:
Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets:
One living creature per three levels, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration:
1 round/level or 1 round; see text for cause fear

Saving Throw:
Will partial
Spell Resistance:
Yes
This spell functions like cause fear, except that it causes all targeted creatures of less than 6 HD to become frightened.
Material Component
A bit of bone from an undead skeleton, zombie, ghoul, ghast, or mummy.

Cause Fear
Necromancy [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
Level:
Brd 1, Clr 1, Death 1, Sor/Wiz 1

Components:
V, S
Casting Time:
1 standard action

Range:
Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target:
One living creature with 5 or fewer HD
Duration:
1d4 rounds or 1 round; see text

Saving Throw:
Will partial
Spell Resistance:
Yes
The affected creature becomes frightened. If the subject succeeds on a Will save, it is shaken for 1 round. Creatures with 6 or more Hit Dice are immune to this effect.
Cause fear counters and dispels remove fear.
Frightened
A frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A frightened creature takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.
Frightened is like shaken, except that the creature must flee if possible. Panicked is a more extreme state of fear.

Stinking Cloud
Conjuration (Creation)
Level:
Sor/Wiz 3

Components:
V, S, M
Casting Time:
1 standard action

Range:
Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect:
Cloud spreads in 20-ft. radius, 20 ft. high
Duration:
1 round/level
Saving Throw:
Fortitude negates; see text
Spell Resistance:
No
Stinking cloud creates a bank of fog like that created by fog cloud, except that the vapors are nauseating. Living creatures in the cloud become nauseated. This condition lasts as long as the creature is in the cloud and for 1d4+1 rounds after it leaves. (Roll separately for each nauseated character.) Any creature that succeeds on its save but remains in the cloud must continue to save each round on your turn.
Stinking cloud can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent stinking cloud dispersed by wind reforms in 10 minutes.
Material Component
A rotten egg or several skunk cabbage leaves.
Nauseated
Experiencing stomach distress. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move action per turn.

[/sblock]
I'm not sure if you included it or not, but also note that in the normal stat block, even though the vrock has a buff it can cast, the stat block doesn't include it. So the stat block is already not doing its job.
 

To answer the original question, yes.

But, I could be playing a game of Paranoia where the entire plot centers around a side-game of Settlers of Catan with the DM representing the Computer, and just for the heck of it throw a Technocracy Mage in the mix from oWOD...you get my point.

3.5, 4E, WOD, GURPS, True20, blah blah blah...they're all just ways to have fun.

I just don't understand some of these arguments. Utils (the hypothetical measurement of a person's enjoyment) are maximized through consumer choice based on consumer information. The complexity of a system is part of this information, but doesn't attest to whether one system is better or worse.

I thought we were all done with wrongbadfun. :)
 


...Monsters just could do too much in 3.x...
I agree - although I think we're both referring to things a party will face once they get to about 11th level and beyond. Far better to distill 10+ special abilities into 3 creature-defining ones that are easy to remember and are valid in different situations (and thus can be used more tactically).
In 3.x, if I have not prepared properly for a high level encounter, I'll be forced to scan through the special abilities and will pick one and then tend to stick with it for the battle (preferring to keep things moving rather than stall for time while rescanning through for something more interesting/effective). If there were 3 "good" things to scan through, this process becomes far easier and far more effective at the table. The statblocks in 4E are incredibly well presented - because abilities have been distilled down.

However, in overall terms, I like both 3.x and 4E equally - but obviously for different reasons. I still think there is a middleground between the two that would form an ideal D&D for me and my group. I suppose they had to make 4E different enough for it to be worthy of a new edition, but give themselves enough wriggle-room to swing the pendulum back come 5E, 8 years hence.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

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