D&D 4E Is 4E doing it for you?

without reading the rest of the thread, i'll chime in.

i haven't seen much about 4e that's gotten me interested. a heavily-houseruled 3.5 works for me, so if it ain't broke, why fix it? :)

messy

The highlighted part of your post is the reason why. ;)
 

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I'm getting to D&D about three times as much as I used to - 3.x had been in a spiral of death for ages by the time 4e was launched. To the point that I was actually playing something that didn't even close to resembling 3e anymore.

The biggest thing for me is that, as a DM, it's complete night and day. Soooo much better. Thankfully, of my four groups of possible players, three are in complete agreement. And the fourth... I'm about to find out. I've got one person who doesn't like how it reads, but hasn't played, two people who just show up cause their SOs do, and four people who like 4e in that group. We'll see.
 

That's an interesting way to look at it I haven't considered before. So in essence, 4E makes me organize myself better? ;)
I guess it depends on if you like sifting through piles of cards or not. I'm leaning towards not. This is totally subjective and personal, but I feel it's taking me away from the character sheet, and thus altering the way DnD works on a very fundamental level. Having a dozen small bits of paper in front of me makes the table feel even more cluttered than it was previously.

Do you like it more complex or less complex, or do you feel your group needs different complexity grades? Or do you like both.
I definitely fall into the category of believing that different complexity grades are required. I could imagine introducing certain non-gamer friends of mine to 3.x, but the idea of introducing them to 4E just won't work. I'm certain that having to choose all of those powers would put them off, whereas playing a fighter and picking a couple of feats struck me as something they'd be okay with. Strange but true.

It's an at-will power. I expect spamming with them. They are no more spamming then a 3E Fighter making an attack every round.
Absolutely. It's to be expected. It's what they're there for... except in my experience thus far they serve so little purpose as to be a waste of space. My real problem with them stems from what people say at the game table. I have an aversion to catch phrases. Having someone say "sly flourish" every round is much more repetitive than a previous edition fighter's attacks, for the simple reason that the fighter could use any number of synonyms for his attack, but a sly flourish is always going to be a sly flourish. A fighter's attack could be a swing, a chop, a smash, a slice, a flourish, or any number of other descriptive terms that the player finds appropriate at that given moment.

in 4e all you have to wait is one level, in 3.5 (unless you use the retraining rules) you are stuck with the feat, forever. you know you pick up levels in a "orc slayer" class and suddenly the GM stops using Orcs.
Granted.

You never had a magic item crafter in your group make the fighter a +1 frost, shocking, acid longsword? or the +1/+1 ghost touch, holy staff of Disruption?
No. But there's also a secondary reason. If the DM only hands out items like that infrequently, the players are less inclined to create them. Particularly when your players (like mine) don't get their own the DMG. Now that this information has moved into the PHB... I foresee players pining for the kind of exciting equipment that adds complexity to the game.

Someone did a thread here about magic item distributions throughout the printed core modules, comparing AD&D with 3e and generally found that AD&D had the potential to give MORE magic items, not fewer.
Yes they have, but that's actually separate to the point I was making. Yes magic items may have been more common. However, magic weapons that gave additional dice of damage, where not more common.

As alluded to above, the group that I DM for are very casual about playing DnD, thus the less non-core complexity the better. This means having more bland items and encouraging of certain players to use non spell caster classes, but it is what works for us. This re-balancing in terms of how many options each class has in battle is not something that suits this particular group. The players that want it can dig into multiclassing and other in depth parts of the rules, without bothering those that just want a simple to play character to kill monsters with. 4E seems to sit somewhere between these two points.

In the group I play with that has switched to 4E, we have not reached a verdict. I am merely commenting on how I feel about the system, and how it doesn't suit me personally. I note that out of 6 of us (including the DM), there's 3 grumbling about the system between game sessions (starting the moment we're out of earshot of the DM who does prefer 4E). I don't see this as a healthy situation for the group as a whole.

I'm not trying to put 4E down as a game, it's just not the game for me. I'm playing it in order to give it a fair go, and to ensure that I do actually get a regular game, but I do not find myself enjoying the system itself. I like the character personalities we've created. I'm intrigued by the story. But the mechanics are getting in the way of my enjoyment.
 

1,2,3, 3.5 :p and 4 E have all done it and not done it for me. With 4E though I am a better DM and feel I can deal with everything. As a player I feel overwhelmed with the power "cards" and often the party mulls over which one to use even when it's their turn. Kinda like standing in the line at McDonald's, ponder the menu that's always the same, the clerk says can I take your order and you look blankly at her and then again at the board ... so that time wasting can suck the life out of the game if not managed better.

Ya I love it, but I have loved them all, though the DM'ing was hard with 3x unless your RL job/school was part time ... and DM'ng was a full-time thing.

Funny, a couple of days ago I spoke with my "comic-book-guy" at his store and he said 4E was selling really well, especially after the summer when players were hearing more good things about it by early adopters. he made an awesome comment which we all should take heed of:
"... frankly, it shouldn't matter what RPG you're playing. If you're roleplaying the rules shouldn't even be noticeable or at least the focus ... you should be in the moment and just there in front of the orc."
Maybe not the deepest thing ever but it hit me that maybe the problem wasn't 4E or 3E for that matter but the fact that I was the problem and not playing the role but playing the rules [Zen moment please ....].

So ya, it's doing it for me, but next time I play, I'm going to just go with the flow and role play. Take heart, listening to the PHB2 conversation with WotC I'm feeling that all that was dear to 3E in terms of character options will return albiet in a different form, but options will abound. I'm in it for the long hall and always house rule it to death.
 
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I guess it depends on if you like sifting through piles of cards or not. I'm leaning towards not. This is totally subjective and personal, but I feel it's taking me away from the character sheet, and thus altering the way DnD works on a very fundamental level. Having a dozen small bits of paper in front of me makes the table feel even more cluttered than it was previously.
Why is the character sheet more important then the cards to you? Why does it deserve a higher focus? It are still just numbers, not really representing the character you have in your head. They are hints at best.

I definitely fall into the category of believing that different complexity grades are required. I could imagine introducing certain non-gamer friends of mine to 3.x, but the idea of introducing them to 4E just won't work. I'm certain that having to choose all of those powers would put them off, whereas playing a fighter and picking a couple of feats struck me as something they'd be okay with. Strange but true.
I just say - try it. I think it is not as difficult as it seems to you. Especially if you show them the standard build option (as much as any true roleplayer - or even me - hates the idea of "standardized" builds. The truth is that beginner players always play similar kinds of characters.)
In feel sometimes we give beginner players not enough credit. Especially these days, where many already have experience will playing computer games with varying complexity of user interface and options.

Absolutely. It's to be expected. It's what they're there for... except in my experience thus far they serve so little purpose as to be a waste of space. My real problem with them stems from what people say at the game table. I have an aversion to catch phrases. Having someone say "sly flourish" every round is much more repetitive than a previous edition fighter's attacks, for the simple reason that the fighter could use any number of synonyms for his attack, but a sly flourish is always going to be a sly flourish. A fighter's attack could be a swing, a chop, a smash, a slice, a flourish, or any number of other descriptive terms that the player finds appropriate at that given moment.
What powers do you usually use? Try to spice it up yourself. ;)
Maybe it will catch on. I must admit I rarely spend time narrating my attacks in 3E differently...

In the group I play with that has switched to 4E, we have not reached a verdict. I am merely commenting on how I feel about the system, and how it doesn't suit me personally. I note that out of 6 of us (including the DM), there's 3 grumbling about the system between game sessions (starting the moment we're out of earshot of the DM who does prefer 4E). I don't see this as a healthy situation for the group as a whole.
It's not a healthy situation, especially if grumbing means people are genuinely dissatisfied. I wouldn't try to "force" the DM to run a different game. I wouldn't be surprised if he likes 4E for all the stuff that got easier for him (assuming he used to run D&D 3E). Do you think the quality of his DMing suffered? Do you think there are parts he used to be better with?
Consider talking openly about it. Or find someone that will DM another game (it doesn't have to be D&D, unless your group will only play that).
Of course, you know your group best, so you have to consider what the best route should be.


I'm not trying to put 4E down as a game, it's just not the game for me. I'm playing it in order to give it a fair go, and to ensure that I do actually get a regular game, but I do not find myself enjoying the system itself. I like the character personalities we've created. I'm intrigued by the story. But the mechanics are getting in the way of my enjoyment.
Well, I can't help you much here, because I don't know if a "hongy" suggestion like "stop thinking about the mechanics" works for you. Try focussing on the other aspects.
 

sidonunspa;4488464I said:
n 4e all you have to wait is one level, in 3.5 (unless you use the retraining rules) you are stuck with the feat, forever. you know you pick up levels in a "orc slayer" class and suddenly the GM stops using Orcs.

Dreadful DMing.
 

A fighter's attack could be a swing, a chop, a smash, a slice, a flourish, or any number of other descriptive terms that the player finds appropriate at that given moment.

"I swing at the orc with a sly flourish!"
"I chop at the orc with a sly flourish!"
"I slice at the orc with a sly flourish!"

Problem solved! ;)
 

Why is the character sheet more important then the cards to you? Why does it deserve a higher focus? It are still just numbers, not really representing the character you have in your head. They are hints at best.

To add to this, I really don't even see the need for cards, either. Given that you could lay out the powers to about a dozen on a single page, just checkmarks by the powers you've used would serve as well. The Character Sheets I'm using for an upcoming Gameday come from the Wiesbaden sheet, and I'm using the "power sheet" so that the players won't be playing with a bunch of 3x5's or business cards that I could accidentally lose some of in transit on the way up to the gameday. Our group for our regular 4e games don't use cards, and it works just as well.
 


Dreadful DMing.

So, because a player takes the Knight of the Challice PrC, I must always include devils in my adventures. Wow, and I got lambasted for suggesting that a DM should allow player wishes in a much, much more limited situation recently.
 

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