D&D 4E Is 4E doing it for you?

[Zustiur]

Why is the character sheet more important then the cards to you? Why does it deserve a higher focus? It are still just numbers, not really representing the character you have in your head. They are hints at best.

Because it's a sacred cow? Cards are new, and thus haven't filtered in to the part of my brain that is labeled DnD. In that sense, the character sheet IS DnD.

I just say - try it. I think it is not as difficult as it seems to you. Especially if you show them the standard build option (as much as any true roleplayer - or even me - hates the idea of "standardized" builds. The truth is that beginner players always play similar kinds of characters.)

While I understand what you're driving at, if I do end up running a game for that particular selection of people, it would be pathfinder, not 4e. The DM's preference has to count somewhere! I've looked at DMing 4E, and started writing out an adventure, and frankly, I don't find it any easier than I used to. Laying out the mechanical details was always the easy part for me - coming up with the story is where I struggle. That and the complete lack of any reality behind the economy really makes me mad. I need those details to have at least a little bit of basis in reality so that I can tell the tale I intend to tell whenever I do end up DMing next.

What powers do you usually use? Try to spice it up yourself.
Maybe it will catch on. I must admit I rarely spend time narrating my attacks in 3E differently...

I'll try, but I'm not sure how you can - unless the DM starts allowing us to do all the calculations without declaring which power we're using. Vyvyan Basterd's suggestion doesn't help a great deal, as I'm trying to stop the repetition of words, not disguise them.

It's not a healthy situation, especially if grumbing means people are genuinely dissatisfied. I wouldn't try to "force" the DM to run a different game. I wouldn't be surprised if he likes 4E for all the stuff that got easier for him (assuming he used to run D&D 3E). Do you think the quality of his DMing suffered? Do you think there are parts he used to be better with?
Consider talking openly about it. Or find someone that will DM another game (it doesn't have to be D&D, unless your group will only play that).
Of course, you know your group best, so you have to consider what the best route should be.

Aye, not healthy at all. He did run 3e previously, and I believe you're right in that he finds things easier now. However he preaches about how it's better for the players because there's less book keeping. But we liked the book keeping. I only recently joined the group, so I've only played about 5 games of 3E with them, and therefore can't say the quality of his DMing has altered. As before, I'm trying to give it a reasonable chance before I take it up with him properly. No point in changing just as I start to get into it. Plus one of his automatic responses to player complaints is "you don't have to play you know". I know that all too well. I went for years between gaming groups. I am struggling with momentum though - if my current character died I'd have to think long and hard about how much I want to play another.

Well, I can't help you much here, because I don't know if a "hongy" suggestion like "stop thinking about the mechanics" works for you.

I'm trying... We'll see.

To add to this, I really don't even see the need for cards, either. Given that you could lay out the powers to about a dozen on a single page, just checkmarks by the powers you've used would serve as well.

I specifically did this the first session, and then he printed out cards for everyone on nice thick paper... I felt obliged to use them. I may try alternating for a while to see which I prefer. Certainly the cards have an advantage over my original sheet in terms of containing the whole text of the power. There's no reason I can't recreate them as laid out in the PHB though.

Next game is this Sunday. Hopefully it'll feel better than the previous 2 sessions. If the combat rounds start to speed up it will help a lot. So far our level 1 combats have been taking as long as the level 19 combats from the wind up of the 3E game. Something is very wrong with that!

 

[Raven Crowking]

To add to this, I really don't even see the need for cards, either.

It's so you can tap them when you use your powers. Getting you used to it now is an essential marketting strategy for 5e: the random power booster pack edition.

(I kid.)

 

[Storminator]

To add to this, I really don't even see the need for cards, either. Given that you could lay out the powers to about a dozen on a single page, just checkmarks by the powers you've used would serve as well. The Character Sheets I'm using for an upcoming Gameday come from the Wiesbaden sheet, and I'm using the "power sheet" so that the players won't be playing with a bunch of 3x5's or business cards that I could accidentally lose some of in transit on the way up to the gameday. Our group for our regular 4e games don't use cards, and it works just as well.

I used to have folders and binders with character sheets (sometimes up to 7 pages), and notes and any handouts, etc.

Since I've started using power cards, I use a regular business envelope. Tri-fold the sheet (two pages) and stick the cards in the envelope. Simple, neat, and totally alien to my old way of playing.

Subtle advantage of power cards: when I look around the table, and everyone has most of their cards in the "used" pile... we're in trouble.

PS

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

I'll try, but I'm not sure how you can - unless the DM starts allowing us to do all the calculations without declaring which power we're using. Vyvyan Basterd's suggestion doesn't help a great deal, as I'm trying to stop the repetition of words, not disguise them.

Well, IMO, all your doing when you call an attack sequence in previous editions a bash, a smash or a slash is disguising the term "I attack."

If you used cards you could hold up your Sly Flourish card and say "I bash the orc in the head!"

 

[Steely Dan]

Once again, the gist of the OP is caster players…

 

[phloog]

So, because a player takes the Knight of the Challice PrC, I must always include devils in my adventures. .

No, but I think that it is dreadful DMing as the example pointed out - a player took levels in orc slayer, then the DM never had them encounter another orc.

As the DM you have an obligation in this situation - not to have all adventures revolve around orcs forevermore, but I think you had a lot of good options.

"Joan - I know you want to take levels in orc slayer, but I want you to know that after this adventure the campaign's going in a different direction - I can't tell you what kind of creatures you'll be fighting, but there won't be many orcs for quite a while, and I'd hate for you to commit to something that takes you out of the story"

Or you could use the player input - in the form of that choice, to help shape the direction of the campaign if you didn't have it all plotted out already...maybe you could encourage the rest of the group to be more anti-orc. When player choices derail my clever plans, the result is almost certainly better than my clever plan, because they've helped build the narrative with their actions and choices.

So it is horrid DMing - - the DM should either have done one of the above, something similar, or should have had a conversation after the fact saying 'Joan, I loused this up and let you pick something that just isn't going to work...SINCE you haven't had much chance to use it, it won't damage the believability of the campaign if you just swap out those feats/skills/levels for others, and we can work together to make sure you don't just go from Level 4 Orcslayer to Level 4 Echinoderm slayer right before we play module SF3.

 

[hellbender]

Having finally tried 4e a few times I can say that this is the best advertisement for simulacrum/retro-clone games that there is. Wow, what a nightmare! Trying to teach people to play 4e should be a paying job.

In the end the game was shelved and Labyrinth Lord was cracked out again, to everyone's satisfaction. No more headaches. I know a bunch of hardcore 4e fans will try a reproach, and I will leap into it and say that if all that work is fun for you, then 4e is a great game for you and your group and that is fine. My group just likes to kick back, roleplay and have fun and Labyrinth Lord does that for us.

 

[Steely Dan]

Cards are new

Not at all, been a part of the game since 2nd Ed (Spell-Cards etc), and even before.

In my old solo Dark Sun (1992) campaign, the player ran a half-elf Druid/Psionicist/Mage, and I can tell you, he loved his cards!

 

[jensun]

Having finally tried 4e a few times I can say that this is the best advertisement for simulacrum/retro-clone games that there is. Wow, what a nightmare! Trying to teach people to play 4e should be a paying job.

In the end the game was shelved and Labyrinth Lord was cracked out again, to everyone's satisfaction. No more headaches. I know a bunch of hardcore 4e fans will try a reproach, and I will leap into it and say that if all that work is fun for you, then 4e is a great game for you and your group and that is fine. My group just likes to kick back, roleplay and have fun and Labyrinth Lord does that for us.

This does not match my experience at all.

My players are, frankly, D&D novices. Most played a little 1e/2e and we ran a 3.0 game for about 18 months on release but since then it has been mostly Pendragon, Buffy and various Indie Games.

They picked up character creation and game play in less than an hour and in our first session were already confidently handling the mechanics.

We have cracked open the PHB about 3 times since we started.

 

[WizarDru]

That and the complete lack of any reality behind the economy really makes me mad. I need those details to have at least a little bit of basis in reality so that I can tell the tale I intend to tell whenever I do end up DMing next."

Heh. As EGG himself pointed out, trying to base a fantasy game economy off of reality doesn't tend to work all that well. 3E's example of hong's chickens being a classic example of it. The economics of all RPGs don't really work all that well upon close inspection.


I will say that combat will speed up after a couple of sessions of 4e. Once we got a grip for your capabilities and the flow of play, we found that our 4e combats started to positively speed by...so much so that "Oh, it's my turn again already?" became a fairly standard phrase around the table. YMMV. Of course, this was true to a lesser degree with 3e. When it was brand new, I remember that our first battle took nearly an hour with some giant rats.