Is 4th edition getting soft? - edited for friendly content :)

[Cadfan]

There is a certain tension between the following two positions.

1) Save-or-die should be in the game because it adds tension and drama.

and,

2) Players should always be able to figure out when they are about to encounter a save-or-die, and it is in their own fault if they have not prepared the proper counter magic to negate it.

This is the worst of both worlds. You've got the potential for instant, random character death. In random encounters, that's just annoying. And in climactic encounters, the players know it is coming, and cast Death Ward (or Protection from Evil, or whatever is relevant to the particular save-or-die), and entirely negate the save-or-die effect. The tension is completely erased, as is the chance for character death.

So in non climactic encounters, my character could randomly die, and in climactic encounters, he won't because we know those are coming and we cast the "my character can't randomly die now" spell. Great.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Well, if you say they are out of level for it right now then you are don't allowing the arguement to follow a natural progression but that is another story.

The PCs, if exploring a tomb, should get a feeling by all the other undead that something big is coming up and as a precaution should cast death ward for the end boss, which the Bodak should be at this level.

What about a 5th level party eh? A bodak is a suitable "boss" encounter for a 5th level party. Oh wait... these "idiots" should have bought scrolls of death ward. How stupid of them. Then they could buff up and kill the monster without a challenge before their buff timers start flashing...

The PCs, if they have half a brain, should have a clue that they are about to face something big and every player (that I know, so don't say I am speaking for the free world) that can cast death ward does so and all the time when about to face, or suspecting to face the big bad end boss or in any situation that envolves undead that may drain energy or use SoD. So, unless the PCs are facing a nasty band of orcs and have no for warning that a Bodak is locked in the orc shamans closet,(as happened in the Slavers A1 module, but with a Medusa) then they should get a clue and have it on as much as possable.

Ahh, so only morons dont cast death ward at all time? Honestly, if something is REQUIRED to adventure, doesnt that at least hint that theres a problem? Doesnt that exaccerbate the "D&D day" where if you dont have death ward up, you need to play some cards in a rope trick until sunrise? The spell lasts a minute per level. Unless you are doing a teleport/scry routine or you use divinations to plan your battle, you're going to get caught with your pants down frequently for something that is assumed to be automatic.

 

[Reynard]

What about a 5th level party eh? A bodak is a suitable "boss" encounter for a 5th level party. Oh wait... these "idiots" should have bought scrolls of death ward. How stupid of them. Then they could buff up and kill the monster without a challenge before their buff timers start flashing...

One of those things you don't too often anymore is PCs fighting with their eyes closed. I remember those days, and they were full of fun.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

One of those things you don't too often anymore is PCs fighting with their eyes closed. I remember those days, and they were full of fun.

I did this a lot when I encountered such beasts. There is a good reason the Fighters I play like to take Blind Fight. Unfortunately, that's only effective for them, and ranged fighters or spellcaster become pretty useless.

 

[Grog]

The PCs, if exploring a tomb, should get a feeling by all the other undead that something big is coming up and as a precaution should cast death ward for the end boss, which the Bodak should be at this level.

First, a Bodak is CR 8. That's not supposed to be a boss for an 8th level party, it's supposed to be a standard encounter. A boss would be something like CR 11 or so.

Second, why should the PCs "get a feeling" that something big is coming up? Again, the bodak isn't a boss, it's just a standard encounter. So it's not like the party is proceeding down a grand vaulted hall to a set of adamantine double doors with warning runes carved all over them; rather, they just open some random door in the tomb and there's the bodak.

Let me give another example that hopefully illustrates the problem better. Say you've got a 17th level party who encounters a 13th level evil cleric. Now, at CR 13, four below the average party level, the party is supposed to be able to blow through that enemy like he's not even there.

The problem is, that cleric is probably going to be able to throw at least one save-or-die before the party can take him down. With a 22 Wisdom (15 starting, +3 level increases, +4 item), a Destruction spell he casts will have a save DC of 23. If he targets the wizard or the rogue (the best and most obvious targets), that's not just "Don't roll a 1," even at their level. The wizard and rogue might have a Fort save bonus in the neighborhood of +16 or so (+5 base, +5 Con, +6 cloak of resistance), which means they need to roll a 7 or better to save.

So this CR 13 enemy, which isn't even supposed to be a speed bump for a 17th level party, has a 30% chance of killing a party member with a save-or-die. That's a serious problem with the system IMO.

 

[allenw]

So this CR 13 enemy, which isn't even supposed to be a speed bump for a 17th level party, has a 30% chance of killing a party member with a save-or-die. That's a serious problem with the system IMO.

To be fair, that's if he wins initiative over the whole party. It's more likely than not that the party wizard and/or cleric gets initiative over him, in which case they might save-or-die *him* instead, with rather higher chances of success. Yes, "wasting" a SOD on a level-4 foe might seem poor strategy; on the other hand, since SOD's are often effectively all-or-nothing, it may be more effective to reserve them for *weaker* opponents, rather than stronger ones who will tend to make their save. Or, the fighter or rogue might get initiative and engage him in melee (or use held attacks) in such a way that he can't automatically cast without an AoO (unless he's optimized for Casting Defensively).

One *could* also argue that, at 17th level, recoverable character death isn't a big deal (though I'd agree that it's at least a "speed bump", so the CR13 enemy is still a bit overpowered).

All that being said, yes, I agree that SOD can cause problems, and is yet one more reason why Scarabs of Protection are a good buy at higher levels.

 

[Grog]

To be fair, that's if he wins initiative over the whole party.

Or attacks with surprise, which is hardly an uncommon event in most adventures.

It's more likely than not that the party wizard and/or cleric gets initiative over him, in which case they might save-or-die *him* instead, with rather higher chances of success.

Sure, if the party isn't surprised, and if the party wizard or cleric wins initiative, and if the cleric fails his save against their SOD attack (clerics have good Fort saves, remember), they will be spared the save-or-die attack. But it's just as likely that that won't be the case, which means this enemy who's supposed to be insignificant has at least a 30% chance of killing a PC.

Compare that to what a 13th level fighter could realistically do to a 17th level party, and you begin to see why save-or-dies are so problematic.

Or, the fighter or rogue might get initiative and engage him in melee (or use held attacks) in such a way that he can't automatically cast without an AoO (unless he's optimized for Casting Defensively).

He doesn't even have to be optimized. With max ranks in Concentration (and what else is a cleric going to put skill points into?), even just a 16 or 18 Con gives him a +19 or +20 to his casting defensively check vs. DC 22. That's not a significant chance of failure, and unless the fighter is using a spiked chain, he could probably just 5' step away and remove the need for casting defensively entirely.

 

[Raven Crowking]

So this CR 13 enemy, which isn't even supposed to be a speed bump for a 17th level party, has a 30% chance of killing a party member with a save-or-die. That's a serious problem with the system IMO.

The CR system has some screwy side-effects, to be sure.

 

[Remathilis]

I get a distinct feeling the pro-SoD crowd's answer to any SoD problem is "play smarter or buy better magical protections" Both are highly dependent on the player, DM, and world played in. Not everyone has access to multiple scrolls of death ward so they can go into a tomb, and not every DM will sell them easily, at cost, or even at all. Similarly, I wonder how many of those "it adds tension" players give PCs near instant access to 5,000 gp in diamond dust and a 9th level priest? Surely, if easy SoD effects are a factor in the game, so should easy rezzing. (I fail a paralysis save, I'm out of the encounter. I fail a death save, I'm out of the game for hours)

 

[darkseraphim]

It seems strange to me that the threat of instant death is abhorrent to so many people. In earlier days, character death was commonplace and just something to be dealt with. (Hence the Constitution rules on maximum number of resurrections.)

But there were resurrection spells, wishes, and allies willing to cart bodies out of harm's way for future raising. At worst, there was always the distant patriarch who would raise an adventurer but demand a geas/quest for the god in return.

As such, death was just a dramatic interlude, a major setback, a cautionary tale; and sometimes it was an adventure hook leading to even better stories.

Why are so many players now horrified by the idea of a single character death? Without the threat of swift death, with only slow attrition to provide tension, where does the sense of danger come in? How can play be exciting if you're never going to die?