Is 4th edition getting soft? - edited for friendly content :)

[DM-Rocco]

Sure, I can also throw a Titan at a first level party. Its not a fair fight, its specifically UNfair. But that's what CR (or its next of kin) should tell me.

Consider the Bodak (CR 8) Death Stare DC 15. So a group of 8th level PCs consider him a "Reasonable" challenge.

Lidda the rogue has a fort save of +4 (+2 class, +1 con, +1 halfling). She must roll an 11 or better (50%) to survive. Thats a 50% death chance.
Mialee the wizard has a fort save of +2 (+2 class, no con). 13 or better (60%) she has a 40% chance of survival.
Jozan the cleric has a fort save of +8 (+6 class, +2 con). He needs only a 7 (30%) so he he has a 70% chance of living.
Tordek the fighter has a fort save of +9 (+6 class, +3 con) so hee need a 6 or better (25%). He has 75% chance of living.

(note: for speed I used the NPC stat block, adjusted for race. If you want to ajdust for PC gold, give them all a +1 cloak (+5%) and call it a day).

This normal encounter has anywhere from a 25-60% chance of killing one or more members of the group on the first initiative round. Few other CR 8 monsters (even the Mind Flayer) can KILL 1 one standard action.

Well, Jozan knows that the Bodak is around the corner and casts Death Ward on the party. The Bodak ability is a Supernatural Death Ability and should protect the party from the attack.

Is there another arguement you had in mind?


Death Ward
Necromancy
Level: Clr 4, Death 4, Drd 5, Pal 4
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Living creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
The subject is immune to all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects.
This spell doesn’t remove negative levels that the subject has already gained, nor does it affect the saving throw necessary 24 hours after gaining a negative level.
Death ward does not protect against other sorts of attacks even if those attacks might be lethal.

 

[DM-Rocco]

I tend to agree, but not in all cases. Dive into lava? You don't even get a save.

RC

Now come on Raven, that is just foolish on your part. The rules clearly state you only take X fire damage per round and as long as you make your swimming check and if you have a spell protecting you from fire damage I think you should be able to bath in lava with no ill effect.

 

[Simia Saturnalia]

Well, Jozan knows that the Bodak is around the corner and casts Death Ward on the party. The Bodak ability is a Supernatural Death Ability and should protect the party from the attack.

Is there another arguement you had in mind?

Now let's say Jozan hasn't read the module first, since I can't think of any of the detection spells worth keeping up at all times that gives you advance warning of the specific type of undead out of your line of sight*. So there's no Death Ward.

Now what?

* If there is one, let's say he's out of that level of spells for now.

 

[DM-Rocco]

Well sure, a Wall of Force is invisible and grants you line of sight. But, so he'll have to wait on the capping wall and be above the Tube O' Death when he starts casting.

Well yes, I guess you have me there but I didn't want to get into the liches daily buffs so I offered that instead.

AMENDMENT
The Lich casts greater invisibility, persisted, along with the same versions of fly. He also cast protection against fire, cold, acid, sonic and electric along with the stables like true sight.. Now rather than wasting time outside of the wall of force he instead stands right next to the party, maybe 10 feet, hovering in the air 20 feet above.

When he cast Mords he uses his power from being an arch mage to shape the spell so his buffs don't go away and then continues on in the same fashion. Now he can counter the spells with line of sight, the party has no idea where he is and they most likely die.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Mundane lava? When people are allowed to make saves vs. 9th lvl magic, which can reshape reality, what's so special about molten rocks?

If someone tries to toss lava onto you, you get a save (basically to avoid the stuff). Immersing yourself in lava? I can't buy into any game that allows a character (without some form of protection) to swim in lava or dance on the surface of the sun.

YMMV.

RC

 

[shilsen]

If someone tries to toss lava onto you, you get a save (basically to avoid the stuff). Immersing yourself in lava? I can't buy into any game that allows a character (without some form of protection) to swim in lava or dance on the surface of the sun.

YMMV.

RC

So I presume you don't buy into 3e/3.5e then, since in both a high enough level character could survive a few seconds of complete immersion in lava? Of course, the characters do have a form of protection - their hit points, which would have to be high enough to survive 20d6 fire damage a round. And when you've got that volume of hit pts, you've got another general form of protection, namely the fact that you are no longer a normal human being but are much more akin to the most epic of mythological figures or a superhero.

There are a lot of areas in the game where high enough level characters with no magical aid can pull off things no human being in our world can. It just seems arbitrary to me for someone to pick on one (or two or a few) and have problems with them.

YMMV, and apparently does.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I also agree that these effects shouldnt be used often but removing them from the game just really kind of continues on the track of the (expletive deleted) of the game. Apparently that's just me though.

Not just you. Knowing that Bad Things are out there, and that they might get you, is part of the fun of the game, IMHO. When my players fought a grell, and mistook it for a mind flayer, the fact that they knew encountering a mind flayer was possible made a significant difference in how fun the game was.

The opening of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom is a good case on both sides. How boring it would be if Indy just shrugged and said, "You know what? I don't need your antidote. The poison won't kill me." Equally, how boring it would be if Indy had simply keeled over and died.

In The Princess Bride, though, you wouldn't want the Sicilian fighting the Dread Pirate Roberts for the antidote for iocane powder either, nor would you want him to have several rounds in which to kill Buttercup.

There is a place for both types of effect in the game. SoD effects should be relatively rare, whereas "scrabble for antidote" effects are more fun and can be far more common. Knowing that SoD is out there, though, helps make SfA more fun.

OTOH, some things simply shouldn't allow saves at all. Bathing in a volcano, in general, should result in death, unless there are enormous mitigating circumstances.


RC

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

If someone tries to toss lava onto you, you get a save (basically to avoid the stuff). Immersing yourself in lava? I can't buy into any game that allows a character (without some form of protection) to swim in lava or dance on the surface of the sun.

YMMV.

RC

I can agree with that. But it doesn't really affect save or die spells, because it's not like I am jumping willingly into a ray of desintegration or something like that

 

[Raven Crowking]

So I presume you don't buy into 3e/3.5e then

Not completely, no.

I have a house rule document over 600 pages long.

There are a lot of areas in the game where high enough level characters with no magical aid can pull off things no human being in our world can. It just seems arbitrary to me for someone to pick on one (or two or a few) and have problems with them.

Then you would have no difficulty with PCs all having unlimited ability to walk on water? I mean, why pick one arbitrary ability and not another? All PCs having an unlimited ability to hold their breath? Why pick one arbitrary ability and not another? Etc.

And, as I said, I have a house rule document over 600 pages long. My game is significantly less Wuxia than the core.

RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

I can agree with that. But it doesn't really affect save or die spells, because it's not like I am jumping willingly into a ray of desintegration or something like that

No...like I said, "save or scramble" is better in most cases than "save or die". However, knowing that things in the world can just kill you (even if you never encounter them) adds a tension that doesn't exist if you know that you'll always have 3-4 rounds to counter anything you encounter.

YMMV.

RC