Is 4th edition getting soft? - edited for friendly content :)

[wgreen]

It occurs to me that save-or-die is a lot like the "absolute effects" Sean Reynolds argues against on his website. An "immune to fire spells" ability means you'll inevitably come up with a "super-fire" spell that bypasses that immunity, and then an "immune to super-fire spells" ability, and so on, ad infinitum; likewise, we have save-or-die, and protection from save-or-die, and there's probably a super-save-or-die out there somewhere that isn't affected by death ward or whatever.

Reynolds argues that "fire immunity" is better modeled by simple fire resistance, and that knock is better done with a bonus to Open Locks. Fortunately, the alternative to save-or-die is already available in the game, and it's super-obvious: hit point and ability damage, which we've already been talking about.

-Will

 

[Raven Crowking]

I would really hate to see every effect be "elastic" the way my petrification example is. For example, I truly dislike the idea that a rust monster's rust effect "goes away" after a period of time.

RC

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Yes, if you have a boss as a bodak and you have scrolls of death ward, you should use them. Hmm, I don't see your arguement.

Lets say they metagame and know the creature is a bodak. They go blow a significant portion of their wealth on death ward scrolls at magic mart. They charge into the bodak's lair after buffing, and deal with a weak "boss" that's damage output is a laughable d8+1 per round. You DONT see that as a problem? If I tried I couldnt come up with a more lame climactic battle.

Not really. The game has flaws in that is assumes that you will cast such protections and gain the use of scrolls and such. If the players don't have a balanced party or don't understand that buffing there characters is a good thing then taking away SoD effects isn't going to make them any better players.

Again, lets cut out the middle man. We remove/alter the effects. We also remove the magic bullets, the counters, and the other crap we are assumed to have on. We remove the need to track buff timers and other RPG busy work. We're at the point we were before, without the hassle.

If the DM doesn't give you enough clues to prepare then the is a failing of the DM not the SoD. If the DM gave the PCs clues and they didn't listen, that is a failing of the PCs not the SoD.

Not really. It IS a failing of the crappy nature of SoD's that you have to hand the party clues, get them to jump through SOP's and only then will the encounter be balanced. Except its not... its just dull because of the binary nature of SoD's and their magic counter. Moreover, as we've said, MOOKS HAVE SAVE OR DIE EFFECTS. You encounter mooks all the time in adventures. Without mook warning bells going off that tell you that you must have death ward up. Or are we going to counter this with some persistant divine metamagic death ward cheese as well?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I would really hate to see every effect be "elastic" the way my petrification example is. For example, I truly dislike the idea that a rust monster's rust effect "goes away" after a period of time.

RC

It wasnt flat out terrible though. Imagine if the rust monster's tentacles temporarily softened the material it hit. This, coupled with their corrosive bite allows them to eat things they normally wouldnt. They can still sunder the sword or gobble holes in armor, but if you manage to get away quickly, the tentacle effect would fade over time.

It wasnt bad for an off the cuff redesign of a creature that suffers the same crappy design of the bodak, where its a one trick creature that essentially works like a zinger trap.

 

[Cadfan]

Raven Crowking- Thanks for the reply.

In no particular order,

Re: the save or die from coup de gras, etc.

In part this is a problem of poor terminology. I don't think most people consider the save from a coup de gras attack to be a "save or die" effect, even though in a literal sense you are making a save to see if you die. The concern is with effects that take an otherwise healthy character, bypass all of their secondary defenses (hit points, ability scores, etc), and render them instantly dead. Those other forum members who dislike save or die effects can correct me if I am wrong, but I think there is approval for things like coup de gras.

Re: immersed in lava.

Agreed. The save represents you not falling in the lava. Or at least not falling all the way into the lava. That's why its usually a reflex save for this sort of thing. Reflex saves are generally not permitted if a character is immobilized. I personally extend this to situations where there is nowhere to dodge to. I will assume that in most situations you can "dodge" by raising your hands in front of your face, perhaps to cover from a fireball. But if you're dropped into a pool of lava and there's nowhere to go that isn't also lava, there's no dodging taking place.

Re: level drain.

I'm ok with any solution they come up with that minimizes my bookkeeping efforts and avoids splitting the party permanently by level. I'm not sure that can be done. But if it can, great. There are a number of ways this could be fixed by changing the EXP structure, though I'm not sure if its worth it. If EXP requirements per level increased exponentially, then losing one level worth of EXP would be a big deal for that level, but a small deal the next level, and a trivial deal the level after that. That's just an example. I don't know what solution is best.

 

[Raven Crowking]

It wasnt flat out terrible though.

A matter of opinion. I greatly dislike the idea that metal, once rusted or "softened", somehow regenerates itself.

It wasnt bad for an off the cuff redesign of a creature that suffers the same crappy design of the bodak, where its a one trick creature that essentially works like a zinger trap.

Again, I don't think that the bodak was a terrible design; it just happens to be a design that demonstrates a problem with the power curve in 3.x.

YMMV.

RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

Raven Crowking- Thanks for the reply.

No problem. That was a clear & insightful post....a pleasure to respond to!

Re: the save or die from coup de gras, etc.

I agree that we could clear up the terminology. And, as I said, I believe that "Save or Effect" should be far more prevalent than SoD. Indeed, most SoD effects can be easily defined as SoE abilities.

Re: immersed in lava.

Glad to know that I am not alone in thinking that the 3.x "bathing in lava" rules are a bit...off.

Re: level drain.

I don't think having PCs at different levels is a problem, personally. Especially not, as I said, if feats and skill points are to some degree decoupled from level.

RC

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

A matter of opinion. I greatly dislike the idea that metal, once rusted or "softened", somehow regenerates itself.

Out of curiosity, why? Its a mgical effect that warps reality. The way I see it, it could go eitheri way of wearing off or not. Keen edge temporarily makes something sharper, and it wears off. Maybe I've played a few too many "density control" characters in superhero RPG's though.

Again, I don't think that the bodak was a terrible design; it just happens to be a design that demonstrates a problem with the power curve in 3.x.

The bodak sucked in early editions too. It was always a "gotcha" mosnter. It hopped out, looked at you, and did nothing else. Its melee damage has always sucked, do it was a death gaze on a stick. If you lived through the death gaze, you automatically beat the otherwise useless creature. At least give the stupid thing a strength drain attack or something.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Out of curiosity, why? Its a mgical effect that warps reality. The way I see it, it could go eitheri way of wearing off or not. Keen edge temporarily makes something sharper, and it wears off. Maybe I've played a few too many "density control" characters in superhero RPG's though.

I prefer the attack to be extraordinary (as it is in 3.x), rather than supernatural.

The bodak sucked in early editions too. It was always a "gotcha" mosnter. It hopped out, looked at you, and did nothing else.

In earlier editions, at least it could do its sucky damage, which means that it could contribute to an attrition-based paradigm. It isn't necessary for a monster to beat the snot out of the PCs for it to have an adverse effect on them.

(Well, maybe in 4th Ed it will be; it isn't in OD&D through 3.5.)

RC

 

[Remathilis]

This is most likely the tip of the ice berg of a newer and more "player friendly" D&D so while removing SoD effects doesn't mean that players can't die, I think it is heading in a direction where it will be easier to live through an encounter, thus less death.

Because Heaven FORBID the PLAYERS have fun. Its just not D&D unless the DM can gloat over the piles of cheaply killed player characters and show HE, not the players, and all important.

Anyone who thinks that, do yourself a favor: buy a candy-apple red sports car like normal people do.