Is 4th edition getting soft? - edited for friendly content :)

All the posts along the lines of - "SoD monsters are fine provided they come at the end of a chain the players could predict and avoid" - aren't really adequate defences of SoD. If it's a predictable chain that the PCs can back out of or protect against it might as well be D at the end, ie certain death, rather than SoD.

What's good about SoD is that the SoD is actually there, in your face, making you roll a save. Not forever hidden away.
 

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Save or Die has a few sides to it (like most stuff found in D&D, usually)

It's a tool for the DM. There's a good handful of creatures in myths and legends that are said to "kill with a glance". Not "sicken and weaken" but "kill". Save or Die effects like the Bodak's gaze or a Banshee's Wail are simply the representation of that. The fact that player characters get a saving throw is the "hero bonus" that puts them above normal folks who simply die on the spot when encountering something like that.

It's a thrill. The thrill that life hangs in the balance of a die roll. It's the thrill of a gambler who bets all the evening's winnings on one lucky dice roll. The thrill of the player who had his fighter take blind fighting, of the group who has collected the rumors and KNOW something like a bodak is down there, but they go none the less, of the cleric who prepared the correct spells and can shine in one of the very basic clerical things...dealing with nasty undead, and triumphing through the graces of his deity over the forces of unholy undeath.

It's a Signifier of special power. There are not THAT many spells that go for Save or Die, and not THAT many monsters with it, either. Every time, it marks the caster/monster as something special, somebody to be reckoned with and not to take lightly. Sure, that's something that can be attained differently, too, but nothing makes people stand up and take notice than somebody who can point at a human being and make it die on the spot.

And as I already tried to point out in my last post, the Bodak is one of those monsters that had a specific use written in its background the first time it was published, a use that had the monster's special ability in mind. That background was dumped while the rest was kept, so all of a sudden a monster with a specific use became a generic monster to be judged fit as an encounter only by a CR number...I hope nobody will be offended if I say that it had to go wrong for many groups. And I also hope that nobody will argue that special monsters have no place in D&D, and that everything should be equally fit to be a random encounter in any old dungeon (although I remember similar remarks from discussions about Rakshasas and Ogre Magi :confused: ). Some monster abilities are for special-use monsters, not for random encounters, and should be used as such...and that assumption should be mentioned in the monster description. The MM series is not a collection of random encounters and cannon fodder, it is (or at least used to be) an adaption of legendary, unique and awe-inspiring monsters to AD&D as well as run-of-the-mill cannon fodder like goblins or orcs, and it would be nice if that would be again the case with 4E...3E is lacking in that respect in its first MMs.
 



Doug McCrae said:
In my view, the defence of SoD is very simple:

It's a thrill.

It's a big thrill to be one die roll away from death.

I just don't like to see a character one of my players has lovingly developed over the course of several years go down due to one die roll.

And we all feel like we're cheating if we just casually resurrect, in fact, we don't really dig any of the resurrection/raise dead etc action.
 

Baby Samurai said:
I just don't like to see a character one of my players has lovingly developed over the course of several years go down due to one die roll.

And we all feel like we're cheating if we just casually resurrect, in fact, we don't really dig any of the resurrection/raise dead etc action.

So if a character suffers Massive Damage from...huh, an empowered maximized Fireball, or something equally damaging...and has to roll his Fort save or die, would that count as a Save or Die situation too? And how do you deal with that then?
 

Geron Raveneye said:
So if a character suffers Massive Damage from...huh, an empowered maximized Fireball, or something equally damaging...and has to roll his Fort save or die, would that count as a Save or Die situation too? And how do you deal with that then?

Like any sane person I ignore that horrendous, arbitrary, cut & paste rule from 2nd edition.

Even the designers have said it is probably best to not implement Death from Massive Damage once the party gets to the higher levels, or every round comes down "he who rolls a 1, dies"…lame.
 

Baby Samurai said:
Like any sane person I ignore that horrendous, arbitrary, cut & paste rule from 2nd edition.

And what does that have to do with sanity? :confused:

Even the designers have said it is probably best to not implement Death from Massive Damage once the party gets to the higher levels, or every round comes down "he who rolls a 1, dies"…lame.

Okay, got a link for me please? I'm curious who said that where. :)
 

Geron Raveneye said:
1.) And what does that have to do with sanity? :confused:


2.) Okay, got a link for me please? I'm curious who said that where. :)



1.) Sane people usually avoid things that are horrendous and/or arbitrary.



2.) I will try to find it for ya (I'm thinking Andy Collins?).
 

Baby Samurai said:
1.) Sane people usually avoid things that are horrendous and/or arbitrary.

The only arbitrary thing I can see is the 50 HP limit. With 3E and its increased damage potential and HP amounts, I could see an advantage in raising it to 75 HP, though. But basically every rule limiting something can be called "arbitrary" if you don't like the justification for it. :)
Horrendous? Hm, matter of taste, I guess. But yeah, that goes for the entire SoD debate...matter of taste. :)



2.) I will try to find it for ya (I'm thinking Andy Collins?).
Thanks, I appreciate the efford. I was trying through Google, but no success so far. :)
 

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