Is 4th edition getting soft? - edited for friendly content :)

[Jhulae]

It's a thrill.

Maybe to you. Definitely not to me, or to some others, from the look of things.

I personally don't know anyone who wants to get to the game all excited about the combat that's about to start (via a cliffhanger from last session) only to have their character killed in the first round because of failing a save versus a SoD spell. Now that player has to sit around for who knows how long, because combats in 3.5 can take a *long* time. Not only that, the player has to wait even longer for the other characters to obtain a resurrection, and sometimes, that can take hours of real time. It's easy to say a player could be out for a whole session. Where's the fun in that?

Even when 3.5 came out, spells like Hold Person and Hold Monster were changed to save every round because players didn't like being out of perhaps a whole combat from a failed save versus something that *didn't* even kill them.

Now, if your character is getting pounded on by attacks or damaging spells or what have you, I find that to be *more* tense, as you try to make a fighting retreat back to the healer, or the cleric having to fight their way to you. Either way, it's more dramatic.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Save or Die has a few sides to it (like most stuff found in D&D, usually)

Geron Raveneye, that was extremely well-put. Much better than my own pitiful attempts to get something of that nature across!

RC

 

[DM-Rocco]

What on Earth is absurd about an 8th level party encountering a CR 8 monster?

There is nothing absurd about a 8th level party encountering a CR 8 creature but there is about a creature that was initially very rare and only found in the abyss and has a very deadly power. The CR system is not exactly an exact science.

 

[Reynard]

There is nothing absurd about a 8th level party encountering a CR 8 creature but there is about a creature that was initially very rare and only found in the abyss and has a very deadly power. The CR system is not exactly an exact science.

That's an issue of use, though. The 3.5 Bodak is indicated as being on a CE plane, but I know I have used them in the Prime.

Now, what should be on a wandering monster list is a different issue. Every edition of the game has urged the DM to create his own, including ones for specific areas of the campaign, not just terrains.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

There is nothing absurd about a 8th level party encountering a CR 8 creature but there is about a creature that was initially very rare and only found in the abyss and has a very deadly power. The CR system is not exactly an exact science.

"Not an exact science" and "completely wrong" are two different things. A party of four freshly-rested 8th level characters should be able to hold their own against a 9th, 10th, or 11th-level encounter pretty well. Are you saying that a bodak should have a CR over 11?

Of course, as you increase the CR (without increasing anything else), the chance of a character of that level dying to the bodak decreases because that character's saves will be higher. So the chance of dying becomes more and more marginal, and an actual death becomes more a random fluke of the dice than anything else. It's less a scary challenge and more "damn crap luck killed my character." That sucks too, for different reasons than a 25-50% chance of instant death sucks.

 

[Raven Crowking]

"Not an exact science" and "completely wrong" are two different things. A party of four freshly-rested 8th level characters should be able to hold their own against a 9th, 10th, or 11th-level encounter pretty well. Are you saying that a bodak should have a CR over 11?

What is the chance of a single death with a APL 1 party of four meeting an EL 1 encounter?

What is the chance of a single death with a APL 4 party of four meeting an EL 4 encounter?

 

[Grog]

It's a thrill. The thrill that life hangs in the balance of a die roll. It's the thrill of a gambler who bets all the evening's winnings on one lucky dice roll.

The difference is, the gambler chose to make that bet. Players don't choose to have to save or die - it's something that's forced on them over the course of mid-high level D&D play. It's not the same thing at all.

It's a Signifier of special power. There are not THAT many spells that go for Save or Die,

So? There only needs to be one, you know. Well, two - one arcane and one divine. The existence of just one arcane and one divine save-or-die spell means that any spellcaster above a certain level can throw a save-or-die. What's special about a power if every spellcaster in the world above 6th or 8th level has access to it?

 

[Grog]

What is the chance of a single death with a APL 4 party of four meeting an EL 4 encounter?

What is the chance of that death being the result of a single die roll?

 

[DM-Rocco]

Well, obviously that particular CR 8 monster isn't meant to be used like other monsters. You can tell, because it has a save-or-die ability, which is balanced for its CR.

I don't get it either.

And...let me see if I can get this right, I've seen it done before...surely a good DM could have PCs escape certain doom and ultimate failure using real challenges, rather than those contrived to do so by giving them the means, in advance, to negate the threat?

It seems like this way means all save-or-die monsters are mooks (non-threatening adversaries thrown into the game to let the PCs look badass), which would defeat the purpose and make them irrelevant except as a book-keeping encounter.

Well, obviously certian monsters are better designed for random encounters and others for end encounters and the like. Just because a creature is a certain CR and the PC should be able to deal with it doesn't mean they should.

A baby red dragon, the lowest CR for a red dragon, a wyrmling, has a CR of 4. I don't care what kind of party of first level PCs you kit bash to try and beat it the Dragon will win about 75% of the time if not higher, especially if it is the main big bad boss which it would tend to be since it is 3 higher thant he PCs and the PCs will be low on resources when they meet him.

The CR rating system is not perfect and not all encounters should be faced by the PCs based on CR. Some situations are better than others and some monsters should be played in a different manner than you might think.

 

[Raven Crowking]

What is the chance of that death being the result of a single die roll?

All deaths in D&D come down to a single die roll.