Is 4th edition getting soft? - edited for friendly content :)

[Bishmon]

You and Bishmon are both missing the point. i don't care about the exact rules of metamagic. The assumption -- the one that Bishmon made that I was responding too -- was that a wizard is still dangerous without save-or-die effects, still has access to magic that can, through hit point damage or whatever, drop a PC with possibility as a save-or-die effect.

I never made that assumption. I made the concession that I wouldn't mind if BBEGs who were at a higher level than the party and had focused their abilities at maxmizing their damage at the expense of other abilities (like defense, spell versatility, etc.), I wouldn't mind if those particular circumstances allowed an enemy to have very lethal attacks. Since he's the BBEG, I sure hope I've got an idea of what he's capable of, so I should be able to mitigate some of that lethality with potions, equipment, tactics, etc., while still engaging in a tough, epic, tense fight.

My issue is when that sort of lethality is in the hands of every spellcaster by virtue of save-or-die spells/

You are saying that even if Bob the Average Wizard can't save-or-die someone, he can just crit with a maximized lightning bolt and it's effectively the same thing. Thing is, you've yet to actually prove that point. You don't know how much damage a crit does on a maximized lightning bolt in 4E. You don't even know if you can maximize a lightning bolt in 4E.

So no, I'm not missing the point. I'm still waiting for you to prove it. But we both know you can't.

Don't get me wrong, though, if you're right and Bob the Average Wizard can kill someone outright with inevitable ease by virtue of a critical maximized lightning bolt, I wouldn't be thrilled with that, and would probably house rule away spell crits if need be. But I'm going to wait and see if spell crits will present the same problem in 4E that save-or-dies do in 3E before just assuming they do.

 

[Rechan]

I have never, and will never, use a Grig. it is stupid, one of the dumbest entries in any monster manual ever. Can I ask that it not be included in the game, too?

Sure. If I had my way a lot of the MM would be stripped out.

 

[DandD]

which aren't "unfun" to many players -- the appeal is forcibly limited.

I dare to doubt. According to the Game Designers, they do listen and find out the game elements that are disliked by the majority of the gaming populace. This "many" could be just some few hundreds. So few that the space wasted for instant-die-effects could as well be used for better rules dealing with other things in the game.

Of course, these many who do like the instant-save-or-die-effects could very well be more than 51-99% of the gaming majority. But in this regard, I trust the opinion of the Game Designers that they did surveys and came to the conclusion that it isn't that needed at all.

 

[Psion]

To be precise, if I don't want to use that sort of creature, I probably also don't want to pay to include them in a book.

Sure. If I had my way a lot of the MM would be stripped out.

Cool. Perhaps wizards can make collectable rules in which we trade and collect for the exact rules we want!

And of course, to make this profitable, it will require randomized rules packs.

 

[hong]

That's wierd. i thought we were talking about the core 4E rules here?

To be precise, we were talking about the rules that apply to people's actual games, which will overlap to a greater or lesser degree with whatever published ruleset they might use. What is "core" or "noncore" is a matter of profound irrelevance when it's time for dice and Cheetos.

Yest you seem to enjoy being deliberately obtuse on the subject.

I have a great yest for life.

Actually, it does, because it means some people who might otherwise enjoy the game, but it and therefore make it strong and more likely to grow, won't.

Won't somebody think of the newbies?

therefore, THE GAME is lessened because not as many people are playing it, for something that doesn't cause any problems by existing as one of the myriad of options available to any given group.

As a grognard, you no doubt already have a group. Consider looking after your group, as opposed to chaperoning the hordes of new players who are no doubt beating down your door desperately looking for a grognard game.

 

[hong]

Cool. Perhaps wizards can make collectable rules in which we trade and collect for the exact rules we want!

And of course, to make this profitable, it will require randomized rules packs.

This is so videogamey.

 

[hong]

"Just as easily" as what?

Context, my dear fellow.

 

[Reynard]

You are saying that even if Bob the Average Wizard can't save-or-die someone, he can just crit with a maximized lightning bolt and it's effectively the same thing. Thing is, you've yet to actually prove that point. You don't know how much damage a crit does on a maximized lightning bolt in 4E. You don't even know if you can maximize a lightning bolt in 4E.

So no, I'm not missing the point. I'm still waiting for you to prove it. But we both know you can't.

Let me try again, since I obviosuly put words in your mouth, which I don't intend to do: the suggestion that there may be powerful spellcasters capable of eliminating a PC in round 1 because of some mechanism, which is what you were saying, is no different to me if that mechanism is save-or-die or some form of blasting type damage spell, all things being equal regarding probability. the difference is one of playstyle and tone and therefore, there's no reason to eliminate save-or-die from the game because it is, theoretically, mechanically the same (at any given level, whether we are talking about Bob or BBEG) and will only reduce the number of options available in the game by removing it. Therefore, there's no benefit, and likely some harm, to its exclusion.

 

[Turjan]

I'm pretty sure that, after 3 or 4 years, everything known and much yet unknown to man will have found its way (back) into 4e, and as it is now, you will have more options than you will ever be able to use.

 

[Turjan]

Cool. Perhaps wizards can make collectable rules in which we trade and collect for the exact rules we want!

As we will get a new PHB every year, some scissors and glue should do the trick.