D&D 5E Is 5e's Success Actually Bad for Other Games?

[Aldarc]

I’m not claiming causality, Lady Blackbird, Mouse Guard, and Torchbearer also released during 4e’s period.

That era was enormously fertile ground for indie game development and release.

Causality is impossible to prove, and people will read into the tea leaves what they will, but a tremendous amount of creative development of popular indie games undoubtedly happened during this time.

 

[Manbearcat]

Causality is impossible to prove, and people will read into the tea leaves what they will, but a tremendous amount of creative development of popular indie games undoubtedly happened during this time.

Absolutely.

And pretending that 4e has no relationship to this (again, not causality, but there is absolutely some connection) is only something that someone who (a) hates 4e would say and (b) is therefore intent on ensuring its gets no legacy rebound (even if it doesn't have a resurgence).

There is waaaaaay too much kindred tech and design ethos between 4e and so many of these indie games (not to mention so many of these designers liked/respected and/or played 4e).

 

[loverdrive]

Vincent Baker's Apocalypse World, the basis for the Powered by the Apocalypse system, was first published in 2010.

Every time someone points out that AW came out more than ten years ago, I feel some kind of pain. I DON'T WANT TO BE OLD!

 

[loverdrive]

Absolutely.

And pretending that 4e has no relationship to this (again, not causality, but there is absolutely some connection) is only something that someone who (a) hates 4e would say and (b) is therefore intent on ensuring its gets no legacy rebound (even if it doesn't have a resurgence).

There is waaaaaay too much kindred tech and design ethos between 4e and so many of these indie games (not to mention so many of these designers liked/respected and/or played 4e).

Yeah. I am no Baker, no Harper and no Alder, but 4e is probably one of the most profound design influences that shaped my games.

 

[Aldarc]

Absolutely.

And pretending that 4e has no relationship to this (again, not causality, but there is absolutely some connection) is only something that someone who (a) hates 4e would say and (b) is therefore intent on ensuring its gets no legacy rebound (even if it doesn't have a resurgence).

There is waaaaaay too much kindred tech and design ethos between 4e and so many of these indie games (not to mention so many of these designers liked/respected and/or played 4e).

I would also point out that a Board Game renaissance or resurgence was also transpiring happening in the background at this time period, including Wil Wheaton's Tabletop (2012-2017). That undoubtedly had some indirect push and pull on the creative developments in the TTRPG sphere as well.

 

[Manbearcat]

Yeah. I am no Baker, no Harper and no Alder, but 4e is probably one of the most profound design influences that shaped my games.

Myself and several others on here (and elsewhere) spent a huge amount of time during that era trying to convince/teach people to (a) view 4e through an indie design lens (thereby undoing some of the really bad marketing ploys/gaffes of 4e - eg "ze game remains ze same" - no it doesn't - and "skip the gate guards and get to the fun"...how about the less incendiary "cut to the action" or Dogs less flammable "at every moment, drive play toward conflict" instead?) and (b) embrace the GMing Techniques and Principles and Player Best Practices that undergird such play.

But the collective cacophony and resolve by a select group of edition warriors to wage a scorched earth campaign on the game (and WotC at that moment in time) was just_far_too much.

I would LOVE to behold an alternative universe where (i) the game was released in, say, 2018, (particularly after the Blades in the Dark, PBtA love-fest) and (ii) the game was released without the utterly unhelpful stuff I listed above (no...the game is not the same and cut to the action and Skill Challenges should be informed by Fail Forward, Success w/ Complications, and every moment of action resolution should dynamically Change the Situation). Edition Warriors would still besiege places with a frantic, pearl-clutching, obfuscating hatred...but now there is so much more widespread understanding of, and love for, indie games and the type of design and play that 4e represented.

Would be interesting.

 

[Aldarc]

I would LOVE to behold an alternative universe where (i) the game was released in, say, 2018, (particularly after the Blades in the Dark, PBtA love-fest) and (ii) the game was released without the utterly unhelpful stuff I listed above (no...the game is not the same and cut to the action and Skill Challenges should be informed by Fail Forward, Success w/ Complications, and every moment of action resolution should dynamically Change the Situation). Edition Warriors would still besiege places with a frantic, pearl-clutching, obfuscating hatred...but now there is so much more widespread understanding of, and love for, indie games and the type of design and play that 4e represented.

Would be interesting.

As much as I would enjoy imagining that, I would still argue that 4e would still definitely need several more passes of playtests, not just to work out the math, but also arguably to cut down on some of the leftover 3e era approach to game design (e.g., bucket o' FEATS!) or even slim the level spread down from 30 levels. I think that there are a lot of games out there that have shown that it's possible to do in 10 or so levels what D&D does in 20 and/or 30 levels: e.g., Shadow of the Demon Lord, Black Hack, 13th Age, Dungeon Crawl Classics, etc.

 

[Manbearcat]

As much as I would enjoy imagining that, I would still argue that 4e would still definitely need several more passes of playtests, not just to work out the math, but also arguably to cut down on some of the leftover 3e era approach to game design (e.g., bucket o' FEATS!) or even slim the level spread down from 30 levels. I think that there are a lot of games out there that have shown that it's possible to do in 10 or so levels what D&D does in 20 and/or 30 levels: e.g., Shadow of the Demon Lord, Black Hack, 13th Age, Dungeon Crawl Classics, etc.

Oh yeah, for sure. I imagine a game more close to Strike(!) but with 4e’s thematic heft/premise, tactical depth, and the tech that enables that thematic heft/premise and tactical depth.

Some sort of Strike(!), Blades, 4e hybrid.

 

[Parmandur]

I agree with Thomas Shey here. If my goal is to sell a product into a market in large quantities, then investigating the reasons for something being popular may be worthwhile.

But if I am trying to design a RPG that will deliver a certain experience I value or think is worthwhile, then it seems a pretty open question whether or not the popularity of some other RPG is relevant. Especially in the case of D&D, it seems unlikely that there are many RPG designers around who don't have at least a passing grasp of how it works.

But if the complaint is "nobody wants to have anchovy pizza with me, a we ever get is pepperoni" (actual problem I have, life is hard), it doesn't mean that pepperoni is a problem for the pizza industry.

 

[Aldarc]

Oh yeah, for sure. I imagine a game more close to Strike(!) but with 4e’s thematic heft/premise, tactical depth, and the tech that enables that thematic heft/premise and tactical depth.

Some sort of Strike(!), Blades, 4e hybrid.

I have never been able to make it through reading Strike! I don't know if it's the writing, editing, layout, the fact that it's trying to be a generic, multi-genre toolkit, or all of the above, but it reads like a mess to me.

IMHO, the problem is that the more one tries turning it into any hybrid of Blades in the Dark, Strike!, or some sort of non-d20 man-bear-cat hybrid, the less that it becomes like 4e. I think that showcasing what 4e could be should be less about trying to make a magic dream system cobbled with favorite other systems and more about trying to cut and polish 4e into a precious gem that lets 4e shine.