D&D (2024) Is Cause Fear still a 1st level spell in 2024?

[Ashrym]

From elsewhere, players can disbelieve from a distance. Take a Study action to make an Intelligence Investigation check versus the spell DC. This is in addition to any interaction or save.

There is no save to make. It's that check after taking that action. If people in the campaign are spending actions constantly investigating everything as they travel they're going to travel rather slowly, lol.

We need to ask ourselves why and how someone might investigate from a distance, or how they interact. Hallucinatory terrain isn't anything more than another terrain feature for characters to see until after they take that action when there's no reason to take that action in the first place.

It's also a large area, long duration, and unlike most illusions doesn't require concentration.

Many players would normally interact with tar pit, quicksand, or bog. Not sure how Hallucinatory Terrain would make a bog seem "poisonous". A wildfire would suspiciously lack heat.

Most people go around that stuff if they can to avoid it. I have yet to see a fighter find a tar pit and say "I gotta get me into some of that" instead of going safely around it.

A bog that replicates the smell of rotten eggs would register as poisonous and potentially dangerous to someone familiar with the concept.

The DM should be describing the illusion as if it's real within the senses of the players. So if there's a smell that's dangerous because toxic fumes exist within gassy swamps then the DM might call for a survival check regarding the smell instead of acting like the smell isn't real to that player at that point in time. The character obviously smells the smell.

Heh, I am unsure why anyone would try defend a worthless spell, but I guess this is the internet. Maybe its just the intellectual challenge of coming up with any utility whatsoever. But even if, the infrequency of such a situationality would make the spell worthless.

It's because the spell isn't worthless. It's niche in it's practical application because it's essentially a tool for trickery in a restricted environment.

A bard or warlock being limited in spell preparation aren't likely to take it outside of conceptual reasons. Or at least I would advise against it because of the niche aspect. A wizard who finds it and adds it to their spell book isn't hurting themselves in doing so and might use the spell occasionally now that they can swap it in on a short rest. A druid might prep the spell on a day when they plan on using it.

The illusion looks, sounds, and smells real so the DM should be treating it that way until the players do something to change that.

Mirage arcane is similar but it's range is huge, it's area is huge, it's duration is long, it also doesn't require concentration, and it does add that tactile component that came up.

Remember, there isn't a saving throw for these spells. They're just terrain features until such time as the players specifically take an action to investigate them. A person needs to be careful with the tactile aspects of hallucinatory terrain but not mirage arcane.

 

[Horwath]

I wish the 2024 Players Handbook left out some of the spells from the 2014 Players Handbook. Heh, certain spells like Hallucinatory Terrain and Mirage Arcane are so offensively worthless they pollute the valuable page space of the new book.

I kind of like some usages for those spell.

you know what pollutes pages in new PHB?

Backgrounds!

That section could have been 1/5th page long.

 

[TheSword]

Hallucinatory terrain is a great spell. Very flavourful. If you want an example of it being used - see Baldurs Gate 3 in the swamps. Great that it affects al senses except touch.

The other great thing about the spell is that it lasts 24 hours and doesn’t require concentration. At 120ft cube it’s a huge upgrade to 3rd level major image in wilderness settings. You can make a cave appear to be a blank cliff face. You can make a cliff appear to have a cave in it. You can make a wide crevice appear in the ground that you and your friends can just walk across. You can make a river for appear to be deeper than it is. You can make a narrow span crossing a crevasse appear not to be there (similar to Indiana Jones’ leap of faith). You can even make a natural crevasse appear not to be there. A free instant long term pit trap that doesn’t require resetting and that creatures just fall through.

24 hours means it can be cast daily if you’re protecting a location or trying to set up a permanent hidden camp somewhere.

 

[Yaarel]

There is no save to make. It's that check after taking that action. If people in the campaign are spending actions constantly investigating everything as they travel they're going to travel rather slowly, lol.

For this spell, there is no save because it is an autosuccess. If players interact with it, they know it is an illusion.

The opportunity to "disbelieve" by making an Intelligence Investigation check is an addition to the interaction.

The spell mentions the possibility of the illusion being difficult to discern − not sure why, maybe the yellow sand is really red sand but still feels like sand? But at this point ... who cares?

We need to ask ourselves why and how someone might investigate from a distance, or how they interact.

The main point of interaction is, the illusion lacks substance, so the hand passes thru it, etcetera.

Hallucinatory terrain isn't anything more than another terrain feature for characters to see until after they take that action when there's no reason to take that action in the first place.

Heh, I know. The spell, Hallucinatory Terrain, is that terrible. It doesnt even matter if it creates an illusion or not. If there is an illusion it cant cloak anything worthwhile, and if it is entered it autofails.

Most people go around that stuff if they can to avoid it. I have yet to see a fighter find a tar pit and say "I gotta get me into some of that" instead of going safely around it.

My characters see a tar pit and they think, theres skeletons there with treasure!

A bog that replicates the smell of rotten eggs would register as poisonous and potentially dangerous to someone familiar with the concept.

I have been around dank swamps. My brother even vomited bright pink milkshake everywhere from the smell. We still needed to get thru it.

Plus, the spell is incapable of inflicting this kind of response anyway. Plus, swamps have experience points and treasure.

The DM should be describing the illusion as if it's real within the senses of the players. So if there's a smell that's dangerous because toxic fumes exist within gassy swamps then the DM might call for a survival check regarding the smell instead of acting like the smell isn't real to that player at that point in time. The character obviously smells the smell.

The characters can smell it and KNOW the swamp is nonpoisonous because the body DOESNT react it.

Same with fire. They KNOW it isnt fire, because theres no heat.

It's because the spell isn't worthless.

Hallucinatory Terrain is worthless. I have played 5e for ten years and never even heard of anyone ever cast it. Even ones in this thread who did, did it DECADES ago. The spell is worthless. Unfit for print.

It's niche in it's practical application because it's essentially a tool for trickery in a restricted environment.

If "niche" means useful once every 27 years in reallife time, the spell is unfit.

A bard or warlock being limited in spell preparation aren't likely to take it outside of conceptual reasons. Or at least I would advise against it because of the niche aspect. A wizard who finds it and adds it to their spell book isn't hurting themselves in doing so and might use the spell occasionally now that they can swap it in on a short rest. A druid might prep the spell on a day when they plan on using it.

The spell, Hallucinatory Terrain, even pollutes the valuable space on a character sheet.

The illusion looks, sounds, and smells real so the DM should be treating it that way until the players do something to change that.

This particular illusion spell serves so function that the player needs to accomplish.

Mirage arcane is similar but it's range is huge, it's area is huge, it's duration is long, it also doesn't require concentration, and it does add that tactile component that came up.

Mirage Arcane is bananas too high a slot for what it does.

Remember, there isn't a saving throw for these spells.

Because the Hallucinatory Terrain spell autofails if interacted with.

They're just terrain features until such time as the players specifically take an action to investigate them. A person needs to be careful with the tactile aspects of hallucinatory terrain but not mirage arcane.

Hallucinatory Terrain isnt a "terrain" because the terrain autofails the moment characters enter it.

 

[Yaarel]

I get there is an intellectual puzzle for finding a use for something.

On the other hand ...


PSYCHOLOGY TODAY

"

Hoarding Disorder​

Hoarding disorder is characterized by an ongoing resistance to discarding one’s belongings, even those with no value, like junk mail, old newspapers, and materials that most people would consider to be garbage. Hoarders also hold on to personal possessions that they no longer use, either because they feel emotionally attached to these items or because they believe they will need them in the future.

People with this condition may give in to the urge to acquire excessive amounts of objects that fill up their living space. The accumulation of clutter and lack of order and cleanliness can cause health and safety risks within the home, but discarding items may cause the hoarder to feel significant distress. In this way, hoarding disorder can create social, professional, and functional problems that affect not only the individual but also the people around them.

"


Fear of throwing away useless spells − and forcing subpar spells to clutter up the Players Handbook − because maybe, just maybe, it might be useful, one day − is like a kind of hoarding.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Fear of throwing away useless spells − and forcing subpar spells to clutter up the Players Handbook − because maybe, just maybe, it might be useful, one day − is like a kind of hoarding.

Mod Note:

No, it really isn’t, and making that comparison is really dismissive of the problems hoarders & their families face.

Don’t do it again; don’t make similarly flip comparisons in the future.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Offensively worthless? Pollute the page space?

I've used Mirage Arcane as a DM to disguise a lair. I've never used Hallucinatory Terrain before, primarily because the area isn't large enough and it doesn't obscure structures within. I was hoping it would be improved.

My players used Hallucinatory Terrain to camouflage the ship they were on.

Back in 1st edition days they used it to channel an advancing army into an ambush.

 

[Ashrym]

For this spell, there is no save because it is an autosuccess. If players interact with it, they know it is an illusion.

The opportunity to "disbelieve" by making an Intelligence Investigation check is an addition to the interaction.

The spell mentions the possibility of the illusion being difficult to discern − not sure why, maybe the yellow sand is really red sand but still feels like sand? But at this point ... who cares?



The main point of interaction is, the illusion lacks substance, so the hand passes thru it, etcetera.



Heh, I know. The spell, Hallucinatory Terrain, is that terrible. It doesnt even matter if it creates an illusion or not. If there is an illusion it cant cloak anything worthwhile, and if it is entered it autofails.



My characters see a tar pit and they think, theres skeletons there with treasure!



I have been around dank swamps. My brother even vomited bright pink milkshake everywhere from the smell. We still needed to get thru it.

Plus, the spell is incapable of inflicting this kind of response anyway. Plus, swamps have experience points and treasure.



The characters can smell it and KNOW the swamp is nonpoisonous because the body DOESNT react it.

Same with fire. They KNOW it isnt fire, because theres no heat.



Hallucinatory Terrain is worthless. I have played 5e for ten years and never even heard of anyone ever cast it. Even ones in this thread who did, did it DECADES ago. The spell is worthless. Unfit for print.



If "niche" means useful once every 27 years in reallife time, the spell is unfit.



The spell, Hallucinatory Terrain, even pollutes the valuable space on a character sheet.



This particular illusion spell serves so function that the player needs to accomplish.



Mirage Arcane is bananas too high a slot for what it does.



Because the Hallucinatory Terrain spell autofails if interacted with.



Hallucinatory Terrain isnt a "terrain" because the terrain autofails the moment characters enter it.

This link from DDB shows your premise is faulty.

The tactile characteristics of the terrain are unchanged, so creatures entering the area are likely to see through the illusion. If the difference isn't obvious by touch, a creature carefully examining the illusion can attempt an Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC to disbelieve it. A creature who discerns the illusion for what it is, sees it as a vague image superimposed on the terrain.

That does not claim the spell automatically fails. That text claims it's likely to fail if the character enters the area EXCEPT when the difference isn't obvious by touch. The illusion from outside of the area of effect isn't obvious by touch because the character in question is not touching it. The illusion does not need to differ by touch. The investigation check takes a deliberate action.

A group traveling down the trail that sees a some bushy grassland off to the side sees some bushy grassland off to the side even it it's really a steep ravine. An illusion that covers a 150 ft cube for 24 hours without concentration and no saving throw has it's uses.

Mirage Arcane does the same thing except the range is sight with an area of a square mile for 10 days without concentration and no save, but also adds that tactile component by which Hallucinatory Terrain is flawed. Mirage Arcane removes the option to disbelieve with a check and adds structures. Truesight lets the individual know it's an illusion but the other components remains so the individual is still forced to interact with the illusion.

These aren't worthless spells just because you don't see their worth.

 

[TheSword]

Could you not hide a structure or group within a hallucinatory terrain by making the terrain appear to be bigger than the structure or group. A hill/rocky outcrop/dense tangle of trees?

I get that you can’t make things disappear but you can obscure them with illusions. Or have I got this wrong?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Could you not hide a structure or group within a hallucinatory terrain by making the terrain appear to be bigger than the structure or group. A hill/rocky outcrop/dense tangle of trees?

I get that you can’t make things disappear but you can obscure them with illusions. Or have I got this wrong?

That's how I interpret it. You have to successfully disbelieve an illusion for it to be translucent, ergo if you believe it you cannot see through it.