Is Chaotic evil more evil than Lawful evil?

Privateer

First Post
Well, I concider all evils to be on the same level. How evil one is is defined far more by actions than any particular alignment; you aren't more or less evil for your affilation on the law vs. chaos axis, you're more evil for causing the suffering of others, and all those other nasty things that define D&D's brand of "evil."

All things alike, though, I think I'd rather live next to a LE person than a NE or CE. :p
 

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JDJarvis

First Post
Chaotic evil is just as evial as Lawful evil
A chaotic evil person is no "worse" a person than a lawful evil person.
A lawful evil person has some code of conduct, some concept of allegiance and order , but is still nonethless evildespite being able to understand and appreciate the usefulness of order. The Lawful evil person both serves and uses the system.

A chaotic evil person, on the other hand, is loyal to nothing or no one, only him (or her) self. The Chaotic evil person seldom (if ever) commits and evil act because "they were following orders" .

A wild and impulsive act of evil that is completed under guille or from a stance of overwhelming power is no more horrible then a cold and calculating evil where ones actions are protected or compelled by laws.
 

Steel_Wind

Legend
The chaotic nature of CE makes it more anthema to truth, justice and weal and the common good, by any measure.

Moreover, I would add that Lawful Evil can easily be rationalized in past societies and civilizations. Many would add that it can be found in current society and civilization as well.

Not so with CE.

CE is not a rational philosophy. CE is so utterly alien that it is, in human terms, essentially an insanity.

By the way, I am not sure that Ted Bundy necessarily qualifies as CE (though I readily admit he may well meet the definition). My point is that he may well qualify as CN. He had no philosphy of evil, per se, anymore than did Jeffrey Dahlmer. They simply did murder for personal gratification.

Apart from the serial murderer, who "rates" as CE? Not an easy question to answer.

Lawful Evil, methinks, presents a very different debate. While I expect this will inflame more than a few Americans, from my Canadian perspective, I cannot see slavery as anything but an organized evil.

Substitute Adolf Hitler for Jefferson Davis and I think we might have entirely different discussion when comparing the nature of Lawful Evil and CE.

So, I respectfully dissent.

Yes, I believe CE is more "evil" than LE as chaos itself, in human terms, is fundamentally disordered and therefore, fundamentally unjust; ergo, more evil.
 

Lord Pendragon

First Post
Steel_Wind said:
While I expect this will inflame more than a few Americans, from my Canadian perspective, I cannot see slavery as anything but an organized evil.
I am American, and agree with you. But every country has skeletons in its closet, including Canada. This isn't the place to examine them.
 

Elder-Basilisk

First Post
I think it's time for my obligatory "There's no such thing as chaotic evil or lawful evil, there's just plain evil. Law and Chaos are not and have never been coherently defined in D&D and, realistically, cannot be coherently defined in a system that includes good and evil" post. There are several reasons for this.

One is that "Good" and "Evil" have a special meaning in the English language that is not properly accounted for by the alignment system. In general, good is the opposite of both evil and of bad. Consequently, a concept like the Platonic form of Good or the G.E. Moore's "good" is specific. There is no lawful form of Good and chaotic form of good. There is only the one form of the Good. Similarly, in Moore's system, the optimific action or belief, etc is aimed at a single and simple good. It doesn't come in lawful and chaotic varieties. Under no real-world interpretation of the good would people say "we're both shooting for good but you also want law and I also want chaos." Instead, they would, quite rightly, say that they disagree about either what IS good or how good ought to be achieved or maximized. Quite simply, good subsumes secondary notions and cannot be included in a two-axis system without wrecking it.

Law and Chaos have their own problems, however, independent of the problems created by including good and evil in a two-axis system. Quite simply, the D&D notions of law and chaos lump together a number of various ideas that are actually completely independent and are sometimes even opposed.
For instance, brainstorming for law will usually yield some combination of the following results: respect for the law of the land, respect for authority, organization, civilization, tradition, honor, order, using a system, honesty, reliability, knights, dwarves
Brainstorming for chaos will usually yield some combo of the following results: individualism, free-spiritedness, shamelessness, disrespect for authority, granting no inherent worth to (or sometimes opposing) honor, tradition, and the law of the land, not using a system, flightiness, entropy, barbarians, elves.
All of these are written into D&D in one way or another and, individually, seem to make sense as oppositions. However, combining them into the mega-concepts of law and chaos does not work because many of the individual elements have no connection to each other or actually oppose each other.

Tradition and positive law, for instance, both tend to fall under the auspices of law while individualism and a lack of respect for the rule of law fall under the auspices of chaos. However, tradition and positive law are actually opposing forces. Societies that depend upon positive law to uphold their institutions tend to be highly individualistic (and highly dependent upon the rule of law). On the other hand, societies that lack a formal legal code typically depend upon tradition to uphold their institutions and tend to have a more collective concept of identity. They also tend to be more primitive. Furthermore, honor is a far more important concept in traditional than in modern societies. (This is recognized in fantasy too--how many barbarians have scoffed at the lack of honor among city-dwellers).
So, based on that simple comparison: Tradition (law) goes with collectivism (also law), barbarians (chaos), lack of positive law (chaos), and honor (law). On the other hand, positive law (law) goes with civilization (law), individualism (chaos), non-honor based societies (chaos), innovation vs. tradition (chaos), etc.

If we wanted to base our comparison on the knight/barbarian dichotomy, we would find a different set of paradoxes. The knight supports the rule of law and civilization, and honor but this will often go against established traditions (how many stories tell of knights destroying indigenous cultures--including their own--based upon the edicts of their sovereigns). The barbarian, on the other hand, believes in the traditional ways of his people, personal honor ("you have insulted my honor..."), and living in harmony with the land. In fact, if one goes back to the law/chaos brainstorm, the only real difference between the paragon of law (the knight) and the paragon of chaos (the barbarian) is which lawful concept--the law of the land or tradition--they tend to uphold and whether they represent civilization or barbarism.

At every stage that you attempt to make logical sense of the law/chaos axis, you will find more problems. The easiest solution to this is to simply recognize that the law/chaos axis is a bunch of nonsense--a random group of ideas strung together without any real concern for whether they actually belong together or not.

As commonly used, chaotic evil types tend to be more destructive of society and lawful evil types tend to be more subversive of society. Increasing chaotic evilness risks anarchy while increasing lawful evilness risks tyranny. (These are not hard and fast distinctions just how they're often used in games. There are plenty or arguments for chaotic evil tyrannies and lawful evil creating anarchy--that's because nobody actually uses law and chaos for exactly the same things and the D&D system uses them for a number of things that actually have no real connection). Whether it's better to live in Rwanda or the Stalinist USSR is an open question. My observation is that it seems to take longer to pick up the pieces after anarchy but that tyranny is more likely to endure for several generations. (Then again, Rwanda's been a mess for pretty much as long as North Korea has been a tyranny so maybe that's not right either). They're both bad.
 

Steel_Wind

Legend
Quite the contrary.

When an example of Adolf Hitler ir just thrown out as an example of which is "more evil", it pretty much smothers meaningful discussion.

The point is whether or not acts in society or in past history would appear to fall within the definition of LE or CE.

If slavery fits the definition of LE - and in my submission it does, how can you then say the LE is not "less evil" than CE?

I am not sure which society one might point to as CE. It is, almost by definition, an impossible task.

But that leads you to the understanding that LE, in human terms, is no necessarily all bad and that there are traits within it that are admirable and redeemable.

Not so with CE.

So yes; CE is "more evil" than LE.
 

Steel_Wind

Legend
Elder-Basilisk said:
At every stage that you attempt to make logical sense of the law/chaos axis, you will find more problems. The easiest solution to this is to simply recognize that the law/chaos axis is a bunch of nonsense--a random group of ideas strung together without any real concern for whether they actually belong together or not.

A rational point and one I agree with.

At its core - chaos/law is a game concept divorced from the reality of human experience. As the concepts themselves are used to describe a fantasy game- that's not a bad thing. But when you try to import those labels and make sense of them within the real world, it becomes an exceedingly difficult task, illustrating the truth of your point.

The ridculous extremes to which CE is likened, however, suggest it is an insanity that one cannot reason with and that is unable to recognize mutual self-interest.

As presented, LE appears the lesser of two evils.
 
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Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Elder-Basilisk said:
I think it's time for my obligatory "There's no such thing as chaotic evil or lawful evil, there's just plain evil.

I'm glad you've brought it out again because I've not seen this argument before and it is a very cogent one. It makes so much sense that I'm tempted to keep a copy :)
 

Steel_Wind said:
Quite the contrary.

When an example of Adolf Hitler ir just thrown out as an example of which is "more evil", it pretty much smothers meaningful discussion.

The point is whether or not acts in society or in past history would appear to fall within the definition of LE or CE.

If slavery fits the definition of LE - and in my submission it does, how can you then say the LE is not "less evil" than CE?

I am not sure which society one might point to as CE. It is, almost by definition, an impossible task.

But that leads you to the understanding that LE, in human terms, is no necessarily all bad and that there are traits within it that are admirable and redeemable.

Not so with CE.

So yes; CE is "more evil" than LE.

I didn't throw out Hitler to "smother" discussion. I tossed him out to suggest that you can have a LE example of someone who's more destructive than a specific CE example. I'm not claiming that someone who's CE couldn't be worse.

Vandalism is CE. That's "less evil" than slavery. Serial killing is CE. That's "more evil" than embezzling, which is LE. Nothing about LE is more or less redeemable than CE. Either someone can be redeemed, and turn away from evil, or they cannot. Neither Lawful or Chaotic has anything to do with that. Evil is evil; the form it assumes is relevant to evil's specific methods, but it is not relevant to the evil's severity.
 

Nifft

Penguin Herder
IMC, LE is Death and CE is Corruption.

Neither is "more evil". Both are Damned evil (literally), and that's as bad as it gets.

-- N
 

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