D&D General Is character class an in-world concept in your campaigns?

[Maxperson]

They weremt rolled though. Npcs in d&d core literature actually do use prescribed methods of stat creation without chamce involved. This is actually known. I hadnt until recently noticed the power creep in the prescribed ability arrays though. Its well above elite array now.

Where does it specify those things? I've never seen where you were required to use stat blocks for NPCs, unless it was in 4e. I didn't really play 4e.

 

[Maxperson]

But there are prayers which include praise, requests, other things, and combinations. Im sure if you ask a religious person "have you ever prayed 'thankyou' after something good happened to your god" many of them would tell you "yes, frequently". At least thats been my exoerience around religious friends.

Sure, but those aren't going to involve spells going off. There are prayers, and then there are PRAYERS. The ones that are spellcasting prayers will be requests for something to happen. "I beseech thee o Moradin, bless my companion that he may bash in orc faces." and so on.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Sure, but those aren't going to involve spells going off. There are prayers, and then there are PRAYERS. The ones that are spellcasting prayers will be requests for something to happen. "I beseech thee o Moradin, bless my companion that he may bash in orc faces." and so on.

I dont think thats very implicitly a thing. Im going to have to think about this for a bit. Maybe. Maybe not. Hmmm...

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Sure, but those aren't going to involve spells going off. There are prayers, and then there are PRAYERS. The ones that are spellcasting prayers will be requests for something to happen. "I beseech thee o Moradin, bless my companion that he may bash in orc faces." and so on.

Ok. So ive looked for a bit and it appears as if what you say is pretty consistantly true (or at least i cant find a counter example). So a cleric's spell would appear to include a request by default. There is no reason however why the song would not be able to include the other things i mentioned as well in addition. And you could make the included request REALLY not obvious by comparison to the other things and the request would still be there. I find it extremely plausible a cleric could pretend to not be requesting anything. Technically it would appear that everything i found so far does include a request though if the nature of the spoken portion is explicitly aparent.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Because even if you sing it, a prayer is a prayer, not a song.

Provide some manner of reasoning for this, or expect to be dismissed completely as just blatantly making things up and claiming they’re the truth. This is absolute nonsense on every level.

Have you looked at the rules? Class abilities are distinctly different, with a few exceptions such as extra attack. Spell lists are also very different, with some overlap. So yes, the rules to determine that for us. You aren't going to see a bard with Wildshape, a druid with Bardic inspiration, or a cleric with Lay on Hands. Not unless they multiclass anyway.

I mean, there isn’t much setting the Cleric and Bard apart there, at least until pretty high level. And can an onlooker tell the difference between polymorph and wild shape? Between Lay on Hands and Cure Wounds?
You’ll probably say yes, but there isn’t any rule backing you up.

Because a song of praise just praises. A prayer is explicitly a request for something, whether healing, bread, holy fire to come down from above, or whatever. It's easy to tell the difference.

Only if the player or DM decides that is the case. A cleric’s spell could just as easily be a recitation if holy scripture. Not only that, a prayer literally can be a song, and a song can be a prayer. The idea that they can’t be both is so patently absurd that it’s difficult to even imagine what reasoning could bring one to the conclusion.

Sure, but those aren't going to involve spells going off. There are prayers, and then there are PRAYERS. The ones that are spellcasting prayers will be requests for something to happen. "I beseech thee o Moradin, bless my companion that he may bash in orc faces." and so on.

Lol what? Nope. That is simply something you are making up. Nothing in the rules actually requires that a prayer is recognizable to onlookers as a PRAYER vs a prayer vs an incantation if some other kind.

Your position seems to be that you prefer class to be distinct in the world, and have run all game input through a confirmation bias filter based on that preference. The rules only support you insofar as we discuss very specific flashy abilities, and assume an expert observer, and then further assume that only someone with that PC class can do that thing in the game world, even though RAW an NPC can have any combination of PC abilities that the DM decides fit the needs of the game.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Where does it specify those things? I've never seen where you were required to use stat blocks for NPCs, unless it was in 4e. I didn't really play 4e.

im talking about the npcs that are themselves a part of the literature. For instance the gods that have statblocks. Almost all of them were built (leveled parts anyway) to a common standard. That is what im saying is known.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Paladin spells, druid spells and cleric spells are distinctively different. As are their class abilities. If you are using your stuff, you can't keep your class secret for long.

That sounds like the sort of thing that you would have to make Intelligence checks to distinguish between. And most inhabitants of most settings aren't proficient in the relevant skills and/or don''t care.

 

[Maxperson]

There is no reason however why the song would not be able to include the other things i mentioned as well in addition.

Sure, but a song would be a song. If it includes a request from your god, it's not a song, but rather it's a sung prayer.

And you could make the included request REALLY not obvious by comparison to the other things and the request would still be there.

If you do that, though, then you have something so long that you aren't finishing it in the 6 seconds a round gives you. If you want to get it done in 6 seconds, it's going to have a request and little else

 

[Maxperson]

That sounds like the sort of thing that you would have to make Intelligence checks to distinguish between. And most inhabitants of most settings aren't proficient in the relevant skills and/or don''t care.

That's why I have said multiple times that class would be recognizable by those who know what to look for.

Having to make check to recognize the class or not knowing what to look for doesn't remove class from the game world, though.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

That sounds like the sort of thing that you would have to make Intelligence checks to distinguish between. And most inhabitants of most settings aren't proficient in the relevant skills and/or don''t care.

In 3.0 it wpuld be a spellcraft check. But untrained knowledges and untraines spellcraft checks still have a chamce tonrecognize a spell anyway if already seen before albeit at a signifficant disadvantage which i think is realistic. Not knowing the name of the spell is also about as relevant as not knowing the name of a bird youve seen a few times. There is a chance you will recognize it as the same kind anyway even without knowledge nature.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

That's why I have said multiple times that class would be recognizable by those who know what to look for.

Having to make check to recognize the class or not knowing what to look for doesn't remove class from the game world, though.

Right. But that really only makes it more difficult to fake. Not impossible.

 

[FrogReaver]

Provide some manner of reasoning for this, or expect to be dismissed completely as just blatantly making things up and claiming they’re the truth. This is absolute nonsense on every level.

I mean, there isn’t much setting the Cleric and Bard apart there, at least until pretty high level. And can an onlooker tell the difference between polymorph and wild shape? Between Lay on Hands and Cure Wounds?
You’ll probably say yes, but there isn’t any rule backing you up.

Only if the player or DM decides that is the case. A cleric’s spell could just as easily be a recitation if holy scripture. Not only that, a prayer literally can be a song, and a song can be a prayer. The idea that they can’t be both is so patently absurd that it’s difficult to even imagine what reasoning could bring one to the conclusion.


Lol what? Nope. That is simply something you are making up. Nothing in the rules actually requires that a prayer is recognizable to onlookers as a PRAYER vs a prayer vs an incantation if some other kind.

Your position seems to be that you prefer class to be distinct in the world, and have run all game input through a confirmation bias filter based on that preference. The rules only support you insofar as we discuss very specific flashy abilities, and assume an expert observer, and then further assume that only someone with that PC class can do that thing in the game world, even though RAW an NPC can have any combination of PC abilities that the DM decides fit the needs of the game.

If your willing to actually go watch the videos I can dig you up a few that shows both prayer that isn’t a request and a song directly to god that includes a request.

Prayer is not and never has been just - god give me. Sometimes prayer is about thanksgiving, sometimes about praise and sometimes about venting.

God thank you
God you are great
God I don’t know what to do

Honestly, I think your conception of prayer is cartoonish.

 

[Maxperson]

Right. But that really only makes it more difficult to fake. Not impossible.

I've never said you couldn't fake it. I've been saying that these things make class distinct in the game world.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

I've never said you couldn't fake it. I've been saying that these things make class distinct in the game world.

oh that i agree with. Ok. You can fake something, even to an expert level character in the relevant class albeit with great difficulty. But they are definitely distinct (except for in certain cases where a class literally shares spells and exact method for casting). Cleric spells and wizard spells are 100% different things.

 

[FrogReaver]

I've never said you couldn't fake it. I've been saying that these things make class distinct in the game world.

In a particular setting perhaps but there’s no rules that make it such that a bard can’t cast a spell the same way a cleric does. If so then quote them.

 

[Maxperson]

Prayer is not and never has been just - god give me. Sometimes prayer is about thanksgiving, sometimes about praise and sometimes about venting.

Correct, but "God thank you." and the other types of prayer that aren't a request wouldn't trigger a spell effect. You aren't going to be thanking your god for something that your god hasn't done yet, unless you want to be hit by a divine bolt from the blue for being a presumptive little git. You're going to request that your god does x, and then later if you want to offer up a non-spell prayer thanking your god for that favor, you can. Or you could vent about the target resisting the prayer.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

In a particular setting perhaps but there’s no rules that make it such that a bard can’t cast a spell the same way a cleric does. If so then quote them.

Its not just the way they are cast (there are differences to the necessary parts there to) it is also the actual spell itself. It is literally a different spell. Using different magic. Using different power source. And other differences.

For instance, a bard's spells are arcane in nature. Raw magic to an extent. A cleric recieves power from something less fundemental.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

In a particular setting perhaps but there’s no rules that make it such that a bard can’t cast a spell the same way a cleric does. If so then quote them.

Unless explicitly stated spells that have an arcane version and a divine version are analogues. Not the same. Just very similar.

 

[Maxperson]

In a particular setting perhaps but there’s no rules that make it such that a bard can’t cast a spell the same way a cleric does. If so then quote them.

I already have. The bard rules say that bardic spellcasting involves music. Clerical spellcasting doesn't involve music, though I suppose a cleric could play something while he prays and use a sung prayer. Also, with the exception of those few spells that bards can take from the cleric list through their class ability, their spell results will be very different from clerical spells. For someone who knows what to look for, it will be very hard for a bard to mimic a cleric effectively, and even harder for a cleric to mimic a bard.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

In a particular setting perhaps but there’s no rules that make it such that a bard can’t cast a spell the same way a cleric does. If so then quote them.

Thats not setting specific btw. But holy crap i would have to dig and dig and dig for the entry that makes this clear. Of which there are actually multiple but since its not usually a terribly important piece of info its never somewhere obvious and noticeable.